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View Full Version : The Burning Crusade: Destroyer of Guilds?



Zarithar
March 29th, 2007, 10:09 AM
I may be way off base here, but it seems to me that a side effect of the WoW expansion is some major shakeups in traditional guilds. This is just an observation mind you, as I myself have become a pretty casual player (haven't raided in months), but I see alot of drama and bickering about Karazhan in particular, as well as the 25 man raid cap (as opposed to the old 40).

Anyone else have thoughts on this? I actually am starting to think Blizzard made a mistake as far as raid caps go. Again, this is from the perspective of someone who is in a raiding guild... but doesn't raid! ;)

BorusWintersong
March 29th, 2007, 10:17 AM
A week or so ago I picked up the expansion and returned to the game. What I found is that the lower cap has invigorated my old guild, that was a partially casual raiding guild. A small boost is that now tanking warriors are more in demand.

It may be hurting large guilds that had strict 40 man rosters for raids, but as far as I hear this was a huge minority of the player base, and the boost it gave to the casual raiding guild seems superb. But just like you, this is from some one that does not raid either, I just happen to be in a casual raiding guild, not a hardcore raiding one.

Coldfyre
March 29th, 2007, 10:51 AM
I have seen our guild form cliques in order to get through the heroic keying process, and it seems that untill they finish that, there is no helping others untill that time period. Sad as it may seem I think that they should offer 2 version of the raid simular to AQ, a 25 and 40 man raid, make it like diablo II the more people you add the harder the instance is.

Darkov
March 29th, 2007, 11:55 AM
Well, I saw a lot of guilds vanish once they hit level 55-60 cause they couldn't field enough people for the raids.. players would up and leave and join bigger guilds. Blizzard noticed this and decided to take action.. whether it's for the better or worse now, I don't know, I haven't got TBC, but if they'd done it a year ago when I left WoW, it would've been greatly welcomed on my server.

Whytewulf
March 29th, 2007, 11:58 AM
This change destroyed our mid level guild. Actually Heroic and Kaza destroyed it. When you lock a group of 10 into an instance for a week that is required for progression, you are hosed. You do form the cliques. If you aren't in the power group, your dead. Several people quit altogether and the power group formed a new guild to power through. The 25 man Raiding isn't as much of a concern at this point. So ya BC did destroy guilds and its all over the boards.

Goldenpaww
March 29th, 2007, 03:29 PM
Well, my guild basically disbanded over all the drama. I'm currently guild less and deactivated my account on Monday. I honestly don't want the drama and crap of guild hunting and the stupid rep grinding for heroic keys.

Raxtull
March 29th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Nothing new here. It happens all the time in MMOs. Make things one way and people bitch about it. Change things around and people bitch about it. And the false sense of entitlement that most MMO gamers have only compound the whine-fests that clutter message boards.

The best direction a game developer can take is just to ignore the players and make the game they want to make. If people like it, fine. If not, they're more than welcome to go the hell away. Unfortunately, people don't go away (again, the false sense of entitlement) they just continue to whine instead of finding a new hobby. And more unfortunately, game developers do actually listen to the hordes of whiners and end up screwing up the games trying to please them.

junior
March 30th, 2007, 12:15 AM
I think the fact that raids went from 40-man to 25-man is somewhat problematic, given that many raiding guilds were built around the latter. But it's a change that people can adapt to.

What I think was a stupid decision on Blizzard's part was to create Kharazan as a 10-man with a lockout timer. Anything that small should be doable by a group that you can get together on the spur of the moment. UBRS actually seemed to fill a nice niche role in the original game, and a similar instance is sorely missed, imo. Kharazan can't fill that bill because it has the lockout timer. But the instance is so big that you need a timer in order for raids to have a chance of clearing the whole thing.

Another problem with it is that the raid size isn't big enough to guarantee that you'll have 'one of everything', but at the same time some class roles simply don't work due to the way the place is built. For instance, a paladin can never tank Maiden of Virtue no matter how good their gear or talent spec is because of her silence aura. The problem is that a ten man instance doesn't really allow enough people for Blizzard to screw around with job roles like that. It's one thing if Blizzard wants to disallow certain job specs in a 25 man encounter. There are enough slots open and enough people present that some raid members can temporarily drop to their secondary roles. But it's another thing entirely in a ten man where you really don't have as much coverage when someone suddenly can't fulfill their primary role - and indeed can't even contribute in one of their secondary roles (since paladin melee doesn't work in that encounter either).

Finally, ten doesn't divide evenly into twenty-five. And that means that if your guild has twenty-five raiders who regularly attend guild raids, you can handle the big raids with no problem. But Kharazan causes problems because you've got five people who are going to get left out in the cold when your guild decides to run through Medivh's tower.

Ska
March 30th, 2007, 09:03 AM
Finally, ten doesn't divide evenly into twenty-five. And that means that if your guild has twenty-five raiders who regularly attend guild raids, you can handle the big raids with no problem. But Kharazan causes problems because you've got five people who are going to get left out in the cold when your guild decides to run through Medivh's tower.

Nail on the head here. This is also giving a lot of smaller guilds false hope. they figure they can get 1 sometimes 2 groups into Kara, they'll be able to knock out Gruul and Magtheridon. Not quite true. You still have to have a large 30 person raid base. But those extra 5-10 people have to realize they will get rotated in Kara.

In my guild, the whole scaling down has caused a lot of unnecessary drama. We've reigned it in. But it's hard to say what was happening at the get go. We have a functioning guild now, but that was a crazy time of growing pains.

BorusWintersong
March 30th, 2007, 09:42 AM
I dont read the official forums due to their flamey nature, but based on comments here it does not seem the downscale to 25 is the real issue, but the 10 member bottleneck "raids" that are being mentioned.

Whytewulf
March 30th, 2007, 11:42 AM
Nothing new here. It happens all the time in MMOs. Make things one way and people bitch about it. Change things around and people bitch about it. And the false sense of entitlement that most MMO gamers have only compound the whine-fests that clutter message boards.

The best direction a game developer can take is just to ignore the players and make the game they want to make. If people like it, fine. If not, they're more than welcome to go the hell away. Unfortunately, people don't go away (again, the false sense of entitlement) they just continue to whine instead of finding a new hobby. And more unfortunately, game developers do actually listen to the hordes of whiners and end up screwing up the games trying to please them.

I agree, people do complain about changes too much in MMO's, but this was such a huge change it really did effect the game. People were preparing for the 25 man raids and most we ok with it, its the 10 man bottleneck no one was prepared for. So you have people not actually able to progress, cause it is a very tough instance to PUG, because of the Timer. UBRS was never like that. Secondly to your point, if you don't like it. go away. Thats the point of the thread, people are going away, they are trying new realms, new guilds or leaving. I ended my account and a few others did. But there are still 8 million others, so I don't think its a big issue on the blizzard side.

bob the goat
March 30th, 2007, 12:20 PM
My experience has been strange. I was an officer in one of the largest guilds in WOW. Semper Fidelis Coiere. I was in it 2 years, and watched it grow from 30 accounts to over 400 ACCOUNTS. Each account having multiple toons, we had well over 1000 toons at one point. We had a lot of casuals, and a lot of raiders. We had one hard core group of 45 that did MC and BWL every night. I helped run the second MC run, that was more of a pick up run every weekend. We ran ZG and AQ20 once a week, usually with 3 full raids, sometimes 4. We got so large that getting a raid was not a problem. The problem that we already faced was that we had to many people. It sucks to have 95 people that want to go to MC, and only 80 slots open. With so many casuals we had a problem when there was 4-5 people hitting 70 before most of the guild was 62 (I saw a 70 before I dinged 61.)

The problem that we face is not one of having enough, or even the right composition, but rather having players that KNOW each other. Every guild run feels like a PUG because you don’t know anyone.

I have since changed realms to Arathor to join some friends that took a free server transfer a while ago. I am now in a really small guild, where everyone knows everyone. Everyone’s spec is based on the raid composition. Everyone knows each others likes, dislikes, abilities, specialties, strengths, weaknesses, gear, and even the names of their kids. I like that.

Trumble
April 1st, 2007, 01:55 AM
Well in my opinion there are several problems.

Firstly we were told that raid sizes would be reduced to 25 man dungeons. And so we restructured to make this work with 2 separate runs.

Then once the game came out we found out that there is basically no 25 man raid accessible to our casual style guild for a while. Gruuls lair is available but quite difficult, and Magtherians is totally out of the question.

TBC needed both an Onyxia type encounter and a miniature MC at least at launch. Forcing 25 man raid prepared guilds into Kharazan AND adding a weekly timer lock on it really hurt a lot of guilds and is trying even on guilds who have been around since launch and came from older games (in our case many came from EQ together).

There wasn't anything for 97% of the player base to cut their teeth on at 70 in a 25 man format. That screwed a lot of guilds up, and it was a major mistake. Things will start to even out as encounters get nerfed and gear starts getting spread out, but it broke a lot of guilds and ruined a lot of alliances that predated WoW, and that IMO is a major design flaw. You shouldn't change the game so drastically half way through it. It's as bad as the SWG combat change IMO, maybe even worse, because millions of people actually play WoW. Now, I am not trying to flame the casual vs hardcore thing, I was 70 and Khara keyed in 2.5 weeks, but I am in a more casual guild because of my friends there.

The expansion took everyone back to zero more or less. T3 stuff is easily matched in lvl 70 5 mans if not before, and the t3 set bonuses only offset that for so long.

I really liked the expansion, they just shouldn't have told us to prepare for 25 man raids and then not given us at least a single entry level one that wasn't a 4-5 month gear check for people who don't raid more then 3 nighs a week.

Finally I would like to say that Khara is probably one of the best dungeons I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing in any MMO. It is brilliantly designed and the attention to detail is astounding, but I haven't seen more then 9 other guildees at once since release, and I miss the 40 man army we used to have.

Realmreaver
April 1st, 2007, 06:03 AM
The idea was excellant but then some tool went and suggested 'hey, let's make it where every single person has to be attuned to goto these meger end game instances so we don't have to actually put out alot of content people can just sit and wait and continue to pay us.'

Seriosuly it sounds this is their mentality. An excellant idea butchered by what seems to be absolute greed.

The gear not being worth is is another kick to the dead horse.

B_Delacroix
April 2nd, 2007, 06:22 AM
I am in a guild that has a lot of growing pains going on right now. Still, it is holding together. This is a guild I was in when they played on EQ (and they probably don't remember me there). In addition, it is part of a strong raiding alliance which is a sort of extended guild anyway. Sure, there are pressures to get keyed. Even I thought I needed to get a key but eventually realized even if I did, I'd not be able to go to the tower. So, I now take it easy. I take the slower road (which I was on before) and gear up before trying to get into the tower if at all.

This expansion seems a lot like Planes of Power to me. It has some cool encounters that are really fun *IF* you can get in on them. You have to get keys and attunments to get in on them AND have some luck in groups. For those on the outside, its more of the same once you hit 70.

My suggestion is, if you've run out of fun and it doesn't look like you'll be getting into any of those fun encounters any time soon, cancel for a year then come back. There is no guarantee you'll get in then either but perhaps they will be easier by then and so more people will be willing to repeat the steps to get attuned.

parano1a
April 2nd, 2007, 08:53 AM
The larger elitist guilds are having trouble staying together because conflicting personalities now have the option to "split off" and still do endgame stuff. I'm happy about that. I dont want to be in a guild with people I hate, just because they are better than 75% of the population of their class.

Now I'm in a guild completely filled with real life and close online friends and we are stronger than any other guild on server (thats not saying much when you are on Quel'dorei server though :) )