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yewsef
May 6th, 2007, 09:32 PM
I am a Tank (Ice/Axe) teaming with a Defender (Empathy/Radiation) at level 28 trying to kill the last boss of Talos TF. The Boss is ArchVillain level 30. We had no trouble staying there for an hour attacking him, he couldn't kill me. But the best we could do is get him to 99.9% HP then he gets back to 100% the next second. We did Due IP TF AV previously and she gave us the same hard time (a 1 hour fight). But this time the AV of Talos TF REALLY have much greater Regeneration than our DPS.

The problem is, we have more attacks now. I have Swoop, Beheader, Gash, and Build Up (then I took Chop just specifically for this fight, I will respec it out when we kill him. We needed more punch but Chop didnt do the trick either). My friend has Neut, X Ray, Proton, and Cosmic thing (Extreme Damage). Still we couldn't drop him.

Again we had no trouble tanking him, no problems with end at all. We chain our attacks as fast as we can, I have ALL possible attacks from my power excluding Whirling Axe. The Empathy friend has all the attacks except the AoE ones.

There's nothing we can do to kill him unless there's a Trick involve something outside of our characters. Think outside the Box they said.

So, if there's a Temp Power that reduce Regeneration of a boss? if there's an Invention that does this trick? we did use Damage inspiration. I have Fortitude on me all the time. Again we are both 28. I was thinking to level up mindlessly to 29 and try him again but I'd rather abandon TF and redo it than doing that.

We cant invite people since we're in a TF.

junior
May 6th, 2007, 11:43 PM
I don't know anything about that TF, but if I had to guess it would be that dps is starting to become an issue. What worked earlier (particularly with a Defender, which is a low-powered Blaster, among other things, and thus capable of generating a fair amount of damage) won't work now simply because the two of you combined aren't generating the amount of damage that a single Blaster or Scrapper could probably generate.

I was also unaware that it was possible to get anywhere within a TF with only two people, let alone to the last boss. Task Forces are generally designed around the idea of having at least a few party members in order to provide a balanced party. I'm guessing that the boss doesn't scale based on how many people you have in the instance, and that would probably be part of the issue.

Gumblackwood
May 7th, 2007, 12:02 AM
One thing you can do is take a break and head to Bloody Bay to get a couple Shivan Shards. That's the only temp power I can think of with any -regen that'd be available to your characters. Shivans can be a cheap tactic, but they'd be the most effective one since you are genuinely stuck without more damage and -regen; shivans add both. Hopefully you won't have much of a problem in BB risking PvP with the two of you there.

yewsef
May 7th, 2007, 02:15 AM
One thing you can do is take a break and head to Bloody Bay to get a couple Shivan Shards. That's the only temp power I can think of with any -regen that'd be available to your characters. Shivans can be a cheap tactic, but they'd be the most effective one since you are genuinely stuck without more damage and -regen; shivans add both. Hopefully you won't have much of a problem in BB risking PvP with the two of you there.

Yeah that kind of stuff I was hoping for. I am so ignorant regarding CoV I stopped playing for a long time. So, how do I get these Shivan Shards? my server is pretty empty so I don't think I'd have PvP problems there. The only problem is if we have to kill a villain in order to get them!

yewsef
May 7th, 2007, 03:07 AM
Alright, I just got Shivan Shards. I read that once I summon the thing it stays virtually forever but will be destroyed if I zone out of its current zone. So, what's the trick now does it do everything on it's own?

Are there any other Temp Power I should look forward to?

Kikaro
May 7th, 2007, 11:12 AM
DPS is indeed the issue. A group of us were fighting the giant pumpkin guy in Croatoa last night. It was a 30 minute fight with 8 of us. He was regenerating too fast for us. So we had a few level 50's come in and help us finish him off.

I was impressed that I out healed all the damage though. Fun stuff.

yewsef
May 8th, 2007, 12:46 AM
I just want to thank Gumblackwood a lot. I did get the Shavan Shard me and my defender friend went in and killed him in 4 minutes or less. His regeneration was the problem and the pet really reduced that greatly and we started to take him down.

Ice/Axe and Empathy/Radiation due makes things very easy. I am sure I deal more DPS than my Claw/Regen scrapper if both are 28 that even without including Fortitude to the calculations. Axe deals great damage through out the levels. With Fort and Radiation -def debuff I rarely rarely miss against purples. We've been doing TFs (the two of us) all the time, actually it gets easier if everyone else leaves and it ends with the 2 of us only. Much easier this way.

I've yet to find a situation where we die. Never happened. Fighting 38948398 purples doesn't do it either. Our only problem is against Arch Villains Regeneration we sit there fighting him for hours. Now with this Shivan Shard, nothing can stop us :D

Thanks again Gumblackwood!

Gumblackwood
May 8th, 2007, 08:41 PM
You're very welcome, glad I could help. Good luck with your team, it sounds like a very fun duo. I'm on fairly frequently at @radon burst if you ever feel like chatting.

junior
May 8th, 2007, 10:25 PM
I am sure I deal more DPS than my Claw/Regen scrapper if both are 28 that even without including Fortitude to the calculations.

If a tank is dealing more damage than a scrapper, then either the scrapper needs a respec, or something is wrong with the game balance.

yewsef
May 8th, 2007, 11:58 PM
If a tank is dealing more damage than a scrapper, then either the scrapper needs a respec, or something is wrong with the game balance.

No, nothing wrong. Both scrapper and tank are my toons. I have a claw/regen level 50. Who said tanks shouldn't deal good damage. The only difference is, if I recall correctly scrappers are at 1.2? and tanks are at 0.9 this means and I'll give you an example if an attack is superior and should deal 100dmg when given to a scrapper it deals 120dmg, when give to a tank it deals 90dmg. Of ciourse scrappers can Crit.

Claws is the least damaging of all the scrappers primaries. I'll list them with their RAW (no enhancements no buffs at level 50 damage against even level minion from City of Data)

Claws:

Swipe (minor), 25.02 Lethal Damage then 18.77 Lethal Damage (after 0.5 second delay)
Strike(Mod dmg), 62.56 Lethal Damage
Slash (Mod dmg), 82.58 Lethal Damage
Spin (mod dmg Aoe), 62.56 Lethal Damage
FollowUp, 50.05 Lethal Damage
Focus (high dmg type), 102.6 Lethal Damage
Eviscerate(superior dmg, extremly tiny cone), 106.35 Lethal Damage
Shock Wave(Moderate Cone AoE), 62.56 Lethal Damage



Your best dmg attack is Focus. Evis deals a little more damage but its activation time makes it not so good and you rarely hit more than 2 guys. I know many who respec it out for best DPS *Shrugs*. I still have it, it's cool but it's just a little more than Focus with much longer activation time. It has a bonus to Crit chance.

Axe get
Gash(Mod dmg), 44.49 Lethal Damage
Chop(High Dmg), 72.96 Lethal Damage
Beheader(Superior Dmg), 87.2 Lethal Damage
BuildUp(80%dmg and 20%acc),
Swoop(Superior dmg), 101.43 Lethal Damage
Whirling Axe(Mod dmg Aoe), 44.49 Lethal Damage
Cleave(Extreme dmg), 122.79 Lethal Damage
Pendulum(Superior big cone AoE), 84.53 Lethal Damage

So axe get 3 Superior Damage, 1 is AoE big Cone.
Axe has 1 Extreme damage.
Axe has 1 High dmg and 2 Moderate Dmg one which is BPAoE

Claws has 5 moderate dmg attacks (one which is AoE big cone, 1 PBAoE)
Claw has 1 High Damage.
Claws has 1 Minor Damage.
Claws has 1 Superior damage with VERY VERY tight AoE cone it should be considered a normal attack. It is MUCH smaller than Flashing Steel of the Katana so go figure.

Shock Wave vs Pendulum. Both are huge range Cone attacks with knock backs. SAME effect. Pendulum is Superior dmg, Shock Wave is Moderate. I respecced Shock Wave out because its damage is puny. I've seen Pendulum it's damage is FAR more than Shock Wave when you enhance it knowing its AoE factor cumlitave with that extra raw 20dmg.

Comparing attacks using City of Data Raw Damage against even level minions at level 50.

Cleave(axe) deals 122.79 Lethal Damage
vs
Evis(claws) deals 106.35 Lethal Damage

Cleave is much more damage, better activation time. Evis activation time kills the chain attack.

Swoop(axe) deals 101.43 Lethal Damage
vs
Focus(claws) deals 102.6 Lethal Damage

Almost same damage.

Pendulum(axe) Big Cone AoE attack that deals 84.53 Lethal Damage
vs
ShockWave(claws) Big Cone AoE attack that deals 62.56 Lethal Damage

Pendulum wins.

Whirling Axe(axe) PBAoE that deals 44.49 Lethal Damage(with knockdown)
vs
Spin(claws) PBAoE that deals 62.56 Lethal Damage

Spin wins.

Beheader(axe) deals 87.2 Lethal Damage
vs
Slash(claws) 82.58 Lethal Damage

Beheader wins.

Chop(axe) deals 72.96 Lethal Damage
vs
Strike(claws) deals 62.56 Lethal Damage

Chop wins.

Gash(axe) deals 44.49 Lethal Damage
vs
Swipe(claws) deals 25.02 Lethal Damage then 18.77 Lethal Damage (after 0.5 second delay) which is equal to 25+18 = 43

We can say its a draw but I really call it a Gash win because it's 1 dmg component.

Clearly Axe deals more damage in most cases than Claws does. What's the catch?

Axe is very end heavy, Claws very end friendly.

With Stamina and Absorb Pain end is hardly an issue to me. I attack none stop. I'm not going to mention Adrenaline Boost, and RA from my friend.

Against slowing enemies, Ice/Axe deals MUCH more damage because of resistance to slow. Regen secondary doesn't protect from slow. Even against sappers, Glacial Armor protect against it while regen scrapper is in big trouble. Comparison was between Claw/Regen and Ice/Axe that I mention previously. Yes maybe Claws/Dark can have AoE dmg but also Fire/Axe can deal yet MORE damage from Burn, Blazing Aura, and that Fiery Embrace (adds 80% damage) it's not even close.

Take it from me. Tanks aren't bad damagers. I do have a level 50 claws/regen. Some tanks can argue that even Inv/SS can deal more damage or Fire/SS is the god of damage or Fire/Fire or Fire/Axe. I know Ice/Em at level 40+ will out damage me! Claws is the crappiest scrapper primary in terms of damage however. But if you want to factor only single target and not AoE(against AVs), Spine scrapper is even S-Crappier.

Don't get me wrong. I love scrappers. I have a Katana/Regen level 30, MA/Regen level 44 and Claw/Regen level 50. I have a Dark/Dark level 20. But when I said my Ice/Axe deals more damage than Claws/Regen I wasn't exaggerating.

Here's a link to City of Data, my info reference:
http://coh.nofuture.org.uk/powersets/powersets.php

yewsef
May 9th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Just listing the top 2 attacks from Energy tank, which I said can deal more damage than my ice/axe. Again this is the Raw Damage (no enhancements or buffs..etc) at level 50 against even level minion.

Energy Transfer 69.4 Smashing Damage + 133.46 Energy Damage = 203 damage (compare this to Evis or Focus!)

Total Focus 44.49 Smashing Damage + 113.89 Energy Damage = 158 damage (compare than to Evis!)

Not even mentioning Energy/Smash is much less resisted than Lethal.

Come to think of it, I wish I went Ice/Energy myself lol.

Nekojin
May 9th, 2007, 09:50 AM
That analysis of Scrapper v. Tanker powers totally overlooks one other thing: Scrapper attacks are generally much faster than Tanker attacks. While the Tanker may do more damage per hit, the Scrapper more than makes up for it by attacking more often. I'd still be willing to bet the Scrapper has better overall raw DPS (not counting resistances).

junior
May 9th, 2007, 09:20 PM
What's wrong with a tank managing to keep up with a scrapper on damage is that the whole idea of a scrapper is based around increased melee damage. A tank, on the other hand, is supposed to be able to attract attention from enemies and take hits. If a tank can fulfill it's role and also do as much damage as a properly slotted scrapper, then there's not much point in playing a scrapper.

Hence my statement that there's either a build problem with the scrapper, or a serious balance issue involved.

iirc (and it's been a while since I last checked, so this could be incorrect or changed), the point of the classes is

Tank - take hits
Defender - keep the party alive (and not necessarily by healing them, as some defender powersets don't have a heal)
Controller - crowd control
Blasters - dps, particularly against trash mobs
Scrappers - dps, particularly against the more powerful mobs

That's not to say that none of the classes do damage. All of the classes do considerable dps when compared to comparable classes in other games. But a Defender should have a lower dps rate than a properly slotted Blaster even though Defenders have access to some of the same ranged attack powersets that Blasters have.