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Drakenred
December 8th, 2003, 08:35 PM
And his name is stupid!

We now know that one of the Ebayers on our server got nailed!

he showed up on one of his other accounts (up untill now we thought he as two diferent people) and started spouting off in Shadowhaven, so we natrualy reported him, aparently someone started talking to him when a GM showed up and let him rant, bascialy he said that he was going to sue Sony for the money he spend on the account and his lost income when his name was abruptly changed to Imsobanned. the GM then /ooced thanks for leting us know what other accounts you have, waited for him to poof then the /gm said that was refreshing! then he gated out.

Wolf
December 8th, 2003, 08:38 PM
Sounds good.

Bashadorf
December 8th, 2003, 08:42 PM
lol what server was this

Drakenred
December 8th, 2003, 08:45 PM
Nameless, it happend a bit ago, I had to let the guild know,

Saethori
December 8th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Now that was fun.

I love heroic justice being dealt against the (evil) eBayers.

If he does sue, it will be thrown out before it touches the courtroom... the EULA (which he clearly agreed to if he played the game) gave Sony the right to do what they did... and it just proved the guy's stupidity to not realise he was 'marked' and try to preserve his other accounts by laying low.

Keiran
December 8th, 2003, 09:13 PM
*grin* That's beautiful. Justice in motion, and with a sense of humor, no less!

Lirren
December 8th, 2003, 09:22 PM
OMG, that's just delightful! Thank you for sharing that, because it totally made my evening. I love the "Imsobanned" name change. Too funny!

December 8th, 2003, 10:06 PM
is there somthing wrong with ebay'ers or just that one in particular?

Keiran
December 8th, 2003, 10:15 PM
Well, in brief, eBaying is bad for all players that don't use it. The selling of items causes those items to be more heavily camped in game, because they have RL value now, denying non-eBayers the item.

eBaying accounts is even worse, leading directly to player deaths. What you get is people that don't know how to play the game, much less the intricacies of whatever class they have, joining high level groups, and then failing to perform some basic role that is required in battle. If the group is *lucky*, they will catch it before they get into combat, and tell the eBayer to take a hike.

Bisuketto
December 8th, 2003, 10:29 PM
Sounds like the guy page 8'd himself.

Ciarin
December 8th, 2003, 10:32 PM
no!!


I was gonna say the same thing!!

argh, you beat me to it......

December 8th, 2003, 10:40 PM
oh, I know this one guy who is working all the time, but he makes about 80$ an hour so to him it's far better to buy the item and work for it in an hour, then it is to spend several hours looking for it.

Keiran
December 8th, 2003, 11:06 PM
Yeah, I can sympathize with that... It's just that as soon as an RL market develops for something ingame, people jump on it and deny it to others so they can make an RL profit.

Not to mention the jealousy from people that can't afford to buy the things they want... It's just something that brings about ill will overall.

Dark Tyger
December 9th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Frankly, if he doesn't have time to play the game, then he shouldn't play it. Not only is it against the EULA, but it's quite possibly against copyright law to buy/sell accounts, items, plat, etc for real world cash. The items don't belong to the people selling them, thus they have no right to sell them.

DarkWyndre
December 9th, 2003, 12:44 AM
Hrm,

Let me preface this by saying I'm not exactly super thrilled by the fact that a RL market for in game stuff exists either; however, I believe they get around those loopholes by selling the "Time" it took to get those things, not those things... they sell their time, and the items are a free gift that come with that purchase of time.

Regards,
DarkWyndre

PS - no, that doesn't make it any better, just means that it is legal

Ciarin
December 9th, 2003, 12:51 AM
Hmm..interesting concept. selling time.


Gives new meaning to the expression "buying time".

I wonder what makes the person think they have exclusive ownership rights to "time".

Tiladien
December 9th, 2003, 01:01 AM
So if I buy a stereo off of a guy on the street I'm not paying for the stereo, I'm paying for the "time" it took him to get it? I really doubt using that excuse even in a game would fly.

Dark Tyger
December 9th, 2003, 01:26 AM
Selling "time to acquire the items" wouldn't hold up if they decided to make the effort to prosecute. The instant the exchange of goods, real or "virtual", enters into the equasion, it's those goods that are being sold.

Reymi_VZ
December 9th, 2003, 01:49 AM
I have always been very very strongly against ebay/player auctions/account trades.
Maybe I am selfish but I think it devalues the time and love you put into your character. My first three characters were equiped with items I had worked for - not farming cash to buy the item even... while i don't think that is a bad thing, I am proud of what I with my friends achieved.
To sell items and accounts for $$ I think is doubly sad. Sad that this happens, and sad for the ppl who are so obsessed as to spend $ for a virtual existance.
If anyone with a purchased or traded account applies to our guild I will vote no. I don't care if it is your best friends cousin or whatever... the time, the love and the spirit of adventure is not in that player or the toon - and to me, those are the things that add value.

Kaylen
December 9th, 2003, 04:08 AM
I don't mind eBayers as long as they can play their class. I once met a 65 bard who had probably had five to ten owners.. and if it weren't for him, myself and a 50-something warrior would've been lost in the dungeon of Ice Well Keep for all eternity.

Well, or Raven would've ported us out. But I do /report people stupid enough to actually admit they bought an account.. I like to be on the right side of the EULA.

It's too bad Blizzard completely ignored my multiple e-mails about scammers..

Naelaen
December 9th, 2003, 09:46 AM
Reymi you're feelings are shared by many :)

I love it when GMs inject a bit of humour into their work "Iamsobanned".... Genius :D

Minwee
December 9th, 2003, 10:23 AM
Sounds like the guy page 8'd himself.


From what I read, he didn't even wait until the end of page 1.

Keiran
December 9th, 2003, 10:26 AM
Argh, I just remembered that... Does anyone have a link to the comic Woody did on that? I gotta bookmark it...

Satarus
December 9th, 2003, 10:30 AM
I wonder if he can /surname and add the surname of causeiebayed

KiTA
December 9th, 2003, 02:50 PM
heh.

Anyone got any screenshots of this? It sounds classic. :)

Drakenred
December 9th, 2003, 04:18 PM
is there somthing wrong with ebay'ers or just that one in particular?

From what I remember he was saying that its not an exploit to make plat with traidskills. if its who I think it is we have seen him warping around between a traidskill contaner and a merchant latly. So I think he was one of the people churning out platinum.

Drakenred
December 9th, 2003, 04:23 PM
Argh, I just remembered that... Does anyone have a link to the comic Woody did on that? I gotta bookmark it...

May I be the first to say HUH?

Saethori
December 9th, 2003, 04:25 PM
I don't think Woody ever did a comic about the page-8 thing. It was very interesting... but it really wouldn't be funny if the link was spreading like wildfire and everyone else already knew of it.

I think it's related to his tradition to not use comic ideas posted on the forums.

Raven00x
December 9th, 2003, 04:34 PM
He made a special page 8 comic, but i think it might've been lost in the transition to safehouse :(

Keiran
December 9th, 2003, 04:42 PM
Yes, that's the one, Raven. Does anyone have a copy of it? :(

Saethori
December 9th, 2003, 04:53 PM
Or maybe the comic was 'nerfed'? That's been proven to occur before...

*whistles innocently*

Ciarin
December 9th, 2003, 05:35 PM
He sent me the link to it before, I'm sure if you just ask him he'll show it to you.

Rhiamon Fatesealer
December 9th, 2003, 05:44 PM
I saw the comic recently, It was linked in a link that someone posted on one of the threads before the move.

If I can still get to deepfried, I'll look for it

Edit: Deepfried is dead.

Edit again: HA! I remembered the URL The Page 8 Comic (http://www.gucomics.com/sonofabitch.php)

Kudane
December 9th, 2003, 05:51 PM
but it's quite possibly against copyright law to buy/sell accounts, items, plat, etc for real world cash. The items don't belong to the people selling them, thus they have no right to sell them.

There are no copyright laws for "Virtual Items"..

while yes SOE's EULA says "don't sell for real world cash" there is no real world law to cover it. And recently several people have started lawsuits to get the laws to support Selling of Virtual Items. The basic claim is "I spent XXXX amount of time gaining this pretend item, if someone wants to spend real world cash for it and we agree on the price, why shouldn't I be able to sell it"... I dont want to start a debate... I am just saying whats going on in the world.. I have never bought items for real world cash.. I see no need for it.

Bottom Line is: currently there is nothing governing the issue besides the EULA. Which is enough to get you banned, but you are not going to jail.

Saethori
December 9th, 2003, 06:08 PM
Hm. Now, after looking at that comic, I remember it.

Funny how I didn't just remember it at all just earlier today..

But regardless... that thing will go down in EQ history..


Wait a second. Weren't we talking about eBays earlier? I hope this doesn't count as derailing.

Ciarin
December 9th, 2003, 06:20 PM
The ebayer incriminated himself unintelligently and hilariously almost as much as the Page 8 guy.

Almost.

There's yer connection.

But are ebayers equivalent to scammers?

And let's not forget the DAoC guy who "accidently" revealed to Mythic he was using a cheat program.

Stupid is as stupid does Mrs Blue.

KiTA
December 9th, 2003, 06:23 PM
I saw the comic recently, It was linked in a link that someone posted on one of the threads before the move.

If I can still get to deepfried, I'll look for it

Edit: Deepfried is dead.

Edit again: HA! I remembered the URL The Page 8 Comic (http://www.gucomics.com/sonofabitch.php)

Holy cow, a 2 meg DOC file.

Anyone remember the post title where teh funny begins? I was scrolling through it thinking it would be about 25% down when I noticed someone else mention Page 8 and how he was on page 15 when he started his post, and 26 when he finished it. So, I donno how many pages that thing has, but, wow. @.@

Edit:

Ok, think I figured it out. Basically this dude name Morsereg was running around scamming people as a few alts/friends accounts, then, in a fit of using one of his alts to defend himself, accidentally posted as "Dadani of Brell" but signed it "Morsereg". Do a search for "Wow Lan... I'm truly speechless.." to find it in the file.

Keiran
December 9th, 2003, 06:35 PM
Thanks, Rhiamon, went and reread the archive of the thread that they had too. Funniest thing I've ever seen in EQ. :D

Rhiamon Fatesealer
December 9th, 2003, 06:40 PM
SONOFABITCH!!!!

Tenolein
December 9th, 2003, 07:18 PM
YES!!

I never heard that term before, 'page 8'd'. But after going through 5 links and downloading that MS Word file and reading it, I found out where it came from. Someone's GOT to have a T-shirt on that thread.. Seriously.

I laughed so hard, I about squirt'd yellowness on myself.

Some people are just too dumb.

Drakenred
December 9th, 2003, 07:33 PM
Oh

My

GAWD!

<<sides hurting

No from the sound of things last night aparetnly they thought he was one of the platdupers and they shut down some of his accounts,

KiTA
December 9th, 2003, 07:36 PM
Plat dupers?

Dark Tyger
December 9th, 2003, 07:38 PM
but it's quite possibly against copyright law to buy/sell accounts, items, plat, etc for real world cash. The items don't belong to the people selling them, thus they have no right to sell them.

There are no copyright laws for "Virtual Items"..

while yes SOE's EULA says "don't sell for real world cash" there is no real world law to cover it. And recently several people have started lawsuits to get the laws to support Selling of Virtual Items. The basic claim is "I spent XXXX amount of time gaining this pretend item, if someone wants to spend real world cash for it and we agree on the price, why shouldn't I be able to sell it"... I dont want to start a debate... I am just saying whats going on in the world.. I have never bought items for real world cash.. I see no need for it.

Bottom Line is: currently there is nothing governing the issue besides the EULA. Which is enough to get you banned, but you are not going to jail.

I've actually heard differently myself. The in-game items are considered parts of the whole work and thus covered under the same copyright. Makes a lot of sense to me, since they exist only within the copyrighted work.

KiTA
December 9th, 2003, 07:55 PM
I've actually heard differently myself. The in-game items are considered parts of the whole work and thus covered under the same copyright. Makes a lot of sense to me, since they exist only within the copyrighted work.

The problem is, I don't think anyone is going to take the stance of 'Your character doesn't belong to you, you're just renting him from Sony/Microsoft/EA/etc". It would royally piss off too many players to do. I seem to remember DAoC doing something similar and the uproar about that was rather loud in the IRC rooms I hang out in. They can ban them all they want, but I don't know if it would hold up in a court. I'm not a lawyer so I can't even begin to guess how that would play out.

And if "etherial" products don't exist and can't be sold, how can people sell domain names and the like on eBay? The guy who had sex.com scammed away from him (by someone using a forged transfer notification in his name to his registrar) won his case, last I heard -- the Judge agreed that even though a domain doesn't exist except for some data on the screen, it's still "property".

December 9th, 2003, 08:05 PM
What is "page 8", or did this need another thread named "What is page8" ???

Garlron
December 9th, 2003, 08:11 PM
LOL!! That's a "Page 8" if I've ever seen one. I need to see more of these to brighten my day.

Page 8 is a now locked thread somwhere in Brell Rants I belive. Basically someone had two account on that message board and was fighting with himself. A huge debate was raised over it. Eventually he posted as the wrong person on page 8 and got caught. Hence....he Page 8'd himself.

Tenolein
December 9th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Yes, I have the MS Word document saved on my computer if any of you all are curious as I was. Just email me, and I'll send it yer way. If you don't know what it is, I HIGHLY recommend it, as it's not only a great comedy story, but a pretty gosh darn good mystery as well. =P

Keiran
December 9th, 2003, 09:18 PM
Players cannot claim their character, or the items on it as their own property, and companies will jump to make sure it stays like that. Why? Because if they don't, then they would get in all sorts of legal trouble when the time came to shut the game down. Players would take them to court for destroying the life of their character. Indeed, it is a good thing for players to admit that the company owns it all, because if the players gain legal control of their online avatars, they can sue for nerfs that bring their character back into line, or improvements that push other classes ahead of them. A company running a game would be paralyzed, afraid to add or alter content, and other companies wouldn't start new games because they wouldn't want to deal with the legal hassle.

These aren't my reasons, though I agree with them, they came from a column called Biting the Hand, that was discontinued when it's author was hired by one such company. Can anyone link? I can't remember the address for the life of me... It's worthy of a read if you're at all interested in MMO games.

December 9th, 2003, 09:22 PM
yep, thats why when DiabloII items sell, they have a few lines explaining it, theres a formal word for it, forgot it though, but I know its out there.

Drakenred
December 10th, 2003, 12:02 AM
plat dupers are using a exploit to efectivly zerox plat into existance, latly their has been a exploit on multiple servers using a hack to use a /warp comand and a macro that lets you churn out hundreds of items every hour that cost you 1gp to make and pay back 5+ plat

Drakenred
December 10th, 2003, 12:25 AM
The ebayer incriminated himself unintelligently and hilariously almost as much as the Page 8 guy.

Almost.

There's yer connection.

But are ebayers equivalent to scammers?

And let's not forget the DAoC guy who "accidently" revealed to Mythic he was using a cheat program.

Stupid is as stupid does Mrs Blue.

Aparetnly the folks at SOE thought he was scamming because he was torked about loosing several accounts which is why he was in the zone having a tempertantrum.

Bisuketto
December 10th, 2003, 12:29 AM
lets you churn out hundreds of items every hour that cost you 1gp to make and pay back 5+ plat

They fixed most of those recipies today. Heard a known macro'r complaining that most of his recipie resales got nerf. That made me smile. =p

Ciarin
December 10th, 2003, 12:36 AM
Perhaps.

Ebayers could be thought of as scammers in a sense, on the notion that recieving an uber char account for money is scamming.

But is it only because they paid for it? Would it be the same if someone just gave away their account without money being exchanged?

December 10th, 2003, 12:38 AM
I don't see how working for money, and then exchanging it for items could be anywhere near scamming...

Scamming is when one person cheats another, both parties agree to an ebay sale.

Drakenred
December 10th, 2003, 01:01 AM
Ironicaly for the most part the Ebayers are not scammers.

The only problem I have with them is that they often temorarily take items out of the normal economy and make it so that you have to get thoes items from them. however the reality is that for the most part the games economy stablised with them existing. And although I wish they did not exist, they do. and since untill recently SOE had not seen fit to deal with them, they bascialy helped creat the problem that mushroomed latly when people started using hacks and very powerfull macroing scrips to generat a seriose wave of plat!

When the Plat bugs started hitting big time my traider abruptly sold around 400k in one night, Usualy I can ocationaly make a sale a week of upper end items, not 7 in one night and never to the same person. however, the guild sold roughly 7 milion Plat worth of gear to the same person, and combined with the two other guilds we are on good terms sold over 20 million plat in one night and all(again) to the same person. you look around in the Bazaa and their is not a single decent Dropable uper end item left for less than 200k(althogh we doubt that he will get that mutch for it). If all of that ended up on a Ebayer, well, now you can expect to pony up real cash to get the items you need if you dont want to go campin for it, and deal with all of the other people who will be their farming it. where the heck he got that mutch plat from is beyond me.

however that still leaves us with a real problem in that now thoes of us lucky to have been honestly traiding have plat to burn, and nothing realy to spend it on, and the stuff that I have Im not going to bother selling for plat because with the best horse and lizard and 570k in the bank, Maxed Traidskills includint Tinkering, and almost all of my gear is no drop excluing my pulling bow, what do I need to spend it on? Unless they plan to let you traid in plat for free months, nothing!

Dark Tyger
December 10th, 2003, 02:18 AM
The problem is, I don't think anyone is going to take the stance of 'Your character doesn't belong to you, you're just renting him from Sony/Microsoft/EA/etc". It would royally piss off too many players to do. I seem to remember DAoC doing something similar and the uproar about that was rather loud in the IRC rooms I hang out in. They can ban them all they want, but I don't know if it would hold up in a court. I'm not a lawyer so I can't even begin to guess how that would play out.

It may not be popular, but it is the truth. As with any creative work, you don't buy the work, you just buy license to use it. As with your ISP, all you buy is access through their servers. The concepts of your characters are yours, at least the parts that are independant from SOE's storyline of Norrath. However, the character's representation in EQ along with everything on that representation belongs to SOE. As does the account as a whole. Ownership is not granted, and the license makes that rather clear. A game, like a movie, book, or song, is a creative work and thus covered under the same copyright laws.

Sure, they can't copyright "A rusty sword". But, the specific representation of it as it exists in EQ is part of their copyright. So is the representation of, say, "A_woodelf_druid01". The character's personality is yours, but that's all.

Dark Tyger
December 10th, 2003, 02:20 AM
Ironicaly for the most part the Ebayers are not scammers.

They all are, based simply on the fact that they're selling something that doesn't belong to them, and, not only were they not given permission to sell, they're expressly FORBIDDEN to sell under the contract they agree to every time they play the game.

KiTA
December 10th, 2003, 02:44 AM
is there somthing wrong with ebay'ers or just that one in particular?

From what I remember he was saying that its not an exploit to make plat with traidskills. if its who I think it is we have seen him warping around between a traidskill contaner and a merchant latly. So I think he was one of the people churning out platinum.

So, um, what's everyone's take on the EQPlatinum.com guys selling guides for $10 a pop showing you how to powerlevel, how to use a loophole in EQ Baking to make "free" plat, and stuff like that? Does that count as exploiting, or is it the same as just reading a strategy guide?

And, if it does, does going to Alakhazam or eqtraders.com also count as exploiting?

Naelaen
December 10th, 2003, 05:20 AM
And, if it does, does going to Alakhazam or eqtraders.com also count as exploiting?

That's like saying just because one website tells you how to exploit the game, all websites about the game tell you how to exploit the game.

Exploit sites are not strategy guides, they are ways of telling you how to break the game. As far as I can tell the only crime eqtraders or allakhazam could be blamed for is saving you a few plat on buying books and guides in the game.