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Satarus
December 10th, 2003, 07:28 PM
taken from message board:
http://pub147.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm1.showMessage?topicID=42813 .topic


I've seen several posts on this topic wondering what's going on with the new abilities on test and I thought I'd clear up some confusion on the new phantom wind line.

FYI, I'm Ryan Barker for those of you that don't know. If you've been in one of the expansion betas in the last couple years (or played on Tallon Zek summer of '01) you know me as Rytan.

The plane for Phantom Wind is to give monks a tool to speed up pulling in group situations. To that end, the tentative line up of abilities is as follows:

Phantom Zephyr - Level 35 - Level 50 Lull cap
Phantom Wind - Level 50 - Level 58 Lull Cap
Phantom Echo - Level 57 - Level 61 Lull Cap
Phantom Call - Level 64 - Level 65 Lull Cap

As with the provoke line the endurance cost is still up in the air, so I won't comment on that right now.

The range is tentatively changing to 150, to address the concerns of many NPCs having a larger aggro radius then 100.

Again, the goal of this new ability is to speed up pulling in areas with lots of low to equal level mobs that are often difficult to split using tradition FD techniques. In addition, multiple monks should be able to split larger sized rooms, so that should add a bit of stackability as well. (I know the generally it's not needed, but I thought I'd mention it all the same.)

If anyone has any feedback on this or any other aspect of the new melee system I'd love to hear it. I posted my E-mail address on the Steel Warrior board, but I think it would be more productive if the bulk of the feedback went here in the thread where everyone can discuss it. Altough, If anyone has anything they really want to send me feel free.

-Ryan

I for one don't like the looks of it because monks get FD which is a powerfull pulling tool in many situations where lull cannot be used (immune, ect) Lull has traditionaly been a tool of bard, chanters, clerics, and pallys. Druids and rangers get harmony (works better than lull) which works outdoors only. Depending on the "endurance" cost associated with this, this can make monks too powerfull of a puller by allowing them to pull in every situation.

Saethori
December 10th, 2003, 07:40 PM
Sounds useful in certain respects..

I really don't see much of a threat, because I barely am forced to harmony things to begin with (although it makes a nice junk buff to protect vs dispel)

It really seems more of a boost towards Monks, rather than a nerf towards the Lull-using classes.

Naryn
December 10th, 2003, 09:07 PM
If it works as well as lull did for my cleric, I don't think there is going to be any sort of huge impact made :)

Kweil
December 10th, 2003, 09:49 PM
Bah a couple bards > a couple of monks for pulling

Aeria
December 10th, 2003, 09:55 PM
Cool that should help monks...I think it is stupid that Bards should be so good at pulling ...hell it's not like they are being quiet with all that singing is it?

Tenolein
December 10th, 2003, 10:16 PM
Bards are the best pullers. I'm not sayin everyone that plays a bard is the best puller, but if played right, bards are the way to go.

One my of guildmates is a Paladin, lvl 65. He knows his way around almost EVERYWHERE. With the experience he has with all the raids he's been in(not zurg mindless zhombie rush either, actual SKILLED strategy raids), he is the best group member to have. He made a bard not to long ago and is now the same level as my main. Every so often we group, and we have never failed yet. I think I grouped with him about 98% of my LDoN's, and we have yet to die. He has a constand pull, then lull's, then pulls another while we kill the last one. By the time we take an enemy down, he's got another one waiting and is on his way for more pulls. I think we take about 1 med break during each adventure. It's glorious.

That being said, I'm not worried about the monks. I'm not a fan of them, but I don't judge on the class, but on how it's played. All I know is I'd take a bard over a monk anyday, even if the monk has lull.

Kat
December 10th, 2003, 11:18 PM
/sarcasm on

I know, why not give every class every ability. Bingo, everyone is balanced.

/sarcasm off

I shall modify a famous saying; "You can please some of the people all the time. You can please all the people some of the time. But you can't please all the people all the time."

I cringe at the majority of tweaks to classes because invariably other classes whine about that and they have to tweak their class to quiet them down.

Tenolein
December 10th, 2003, 11:22 PM
-=nods=-

I agree, but it's out of my control, so I don't worry about it much. Although it would be nice if the hybrids would just stop whining.

Drakenred
December 11th, 2003, 12:18 AM
Im not whining, In fact I think Rangers are a bit over powered, Especialy when played by someone who knows what they are doing, and I was insisting on grouping with an Teir dal SK and a human Paladin back when we all had that redicoulouse XP penalty and everyone else thought SKs and Paladins were crap (untill they saw us basicaly selecting who would get to have agro Perma lock on a pull, and even whith nuke happy Wizies Triple twisting mellee bards and Backstabing rouges who thought that Backstab agro was broken.)

For some strange reason everyone Else thinks that Monks were suposed to be pullers, but monks who pull = slow XP, heck I can get XP faster solo than Full grouped with a monk puller who is FD happy. But then I usualy group with a chanter and or bard and often a Druid who is actualy better at CC outside than Any chanter I have ever seen. But then they all know what they are doing.

Serresrelic
December 11th, 2003, 12:20 AM
FD pulling, especially in the planes where FD doesn't really work all that great, can be very time consuming. I think lull would help with that a little bit, but I don't think it's something so earth shatteringly huge that any other lull-pulling classes should feel threatened by it.

Edit: FD pulling can be very effective and quick in certain areas if you have someone else to tag. The hobs in PoN is one example I can think of where that works extremely well.

Nosferatu
December 11th, 2003, 01:57 AM
If you look at the levels in which they get the "skills" and the caps, it's not that bad...really.

And, monks are part of the "pure melee" group that are, IMO, ripe for some new "goodies". This is a monk "goodie".

Let them have it. Hell, I even like the idea behind it...and I don't even have a monk anymore (deleted to make cleric).

Dununder
December 11th, 2003, 02:27 AM
Personally I like the sound of these changes, but havent been on Test yet to try em out (cant testbuff to the level I play at). To me (especially for Warriors and Monks) it sounds like we are not being Uber Buffed past folks, but being brought at least close to par with the classes we tend to compete for group slots with. And the best part of this entire deal is....

No one is getting nerfed.

Sure, it does smack a bit of a bone thrown to us to hush us up. But at least its something. And we get skills that are NOT at the expense of any other class. I for one could have used the new Provoke line today. My Enchanter and Paladin in my PoN group were hollering at me to hold aggro better......

While the Enchanter slowed mobs while standing right next to me, and the Pally Chain Stunned. I was tearing my hair out =D

Dununder Thunderchunder
Ogre Warlord

Kaylen
December 11th, 2003, 02:40 AM
This rocks. Finally, I can sit back and be lazy and make the monk pull in dungeons.

But I don't see how this will have any effect on other lull classes. My bard's lull has a longer range, uses no mana (or endurance for that matter), etc.. monks are supposed to be the pure melee masters of pulling, and I think this helps. I don't see how it'd hurt anyone.

Naelaen
December 11th, 2003, 05:02 AM
I agree with Nos, the levels at which monks get these abilities is way beyond when other classes get lull so it's just an extra advantage to have when you're going up against the big boys.

Iilolian
December 11th, 2003, 05:17 AM
If this reduces the rate of multi-pulls that I have to steer away from my group, and then waste time FD splitting... then I'd be happy.

Too often I've died in the planes because there's just not enough room for me to work, or the corners are too close together for my tank to tag something off me... and I refuse to pull a train and just HOPE we don't wipe because stuff is just too hard to split. This might make me start playing my Monk again.

Shaokai
December 11th, 2003, 08:05 AM
Bards pulling is a sure sign that the monk will have to go drag his corpse to a cleric soon.

Bards have their place in pulling, sure....like getting Dain down through the ice to the pull area. In most all situations, monks make superior pullers for the sheer fact that they are easier on your clerics mana before the mob gets there.

I'm in no way tring to take away from the usefulness of bards, but to consider them better pullers than monks in my opinion is almost laughable.

-Kijan

Kaylen
December 11th, 2003, 08:18 AM
A bard should never get hit, if you're doing it right. And I usually just lull and let someone else pull, anyway.

Shaokai
December 11th, 2003, 08:29 AM
Your right, I was somewhat vague in my description. Two things usually have happened with my experiences in bards solo pulling.


1.) Nothing leaves the room

2.) The bard dies 2 steps into the room tring to lull


I think that bards helping monks pull is very effective, and that it makes a good team. I've always been a supporter though of monks being the best pullers on the game. It gave my character some feeling of purpose other than just being "dps". I got to feel like I was actually a key factor in how our raids went.

-Kijan

Zyndor Fyrmane
December 11th, 2003, 08:30 AM
I am extatic to hear this!
I may play my monk again once I hear how well it works, like few days after the melee changes go live.

Binaman
December 11th, 2003, 10:33 AM
I really like the idea, I don't like having to pull on my LDoN adventures because the monks FD way is to slow. Being a cleric my mana drops a little to fast if I have to pacify a room. Now this is before I can even get KEI when I get there I might change my mind

Satarus
December 11th, 2003, 10:37 AM
Lull works when :
A.) mob isn't immune, or has crazy resistance to it
B.) Mobs don't have insanly huge aggro radius
C.) Mobs don't assist even after lull

Feign Death pulling is effective when you can't lull, or lulling is too risky. This adds a skill that wasn't intended for monks. If they gave lull to necros or SKs who already can FD pull, you would have an outcry from all the lull classes and monks, but why is it okay if you give it to a monk?

FYI i have done raids with necro and SK pulling and they did just as good as a monk. Maybe a bit better cause the SK could take a hit better and the necro could rune him self before each pull.

Kat
December 11th, 2003, 10:40 AM
Actually I was very jealous of bards when I saw someone play one well. It seems they can do almost anything, and they do it pretty damn well too when the player knows what they are doing.

I know for sure the LDoN adventure I was in would have been too hard without Freyda there.

Shaokai
December 11th, 2003, 10:40 AM
SKs can take a hit better, monks get hit less. Its a trade off.

No class in the game has as good of a damage avoidance as a monk.

Kweil
December 11th, 2003, 01:28 PM
I'm in no way tring to take away from the usefulness of bards, but to consider them better pullers than monks in my opinion is almost laughable.
For non raid mobs: I haven't found a monk I couldn't out pull. Besides having the monk stay with the group means the mob dies faster.
Let me give you a clue to whats in my bag of tricks: 4000+ mana pool, Fading Memories, somewhere around FT 8, Lull, bind sight, eye of zomm helmet, and over 4k hps unbuffed. Unless the mob is immune I rarely get resists to lull. Hardly ever is the group having to wait a mob, I have it mezzed waiting for them. I rarely die even on a bad pull. If I'm getting hit I'll hit FM and start locking the mobs down with mezz.

Now don't get me wrong monks have their place in pulling. I'll let them pull most raids since I'm more helpful staying in camp. Monks can take the hits better then bards so on mobs where thats an issue they can have at it.

Kaylen
December 11th, 2003, 01:42 PM
I, having an SK and all.. don't like using the spell form of FD for pulling, though I've trained myself in it extensively. Monks just have an easier time of it. But I'll do it in a pinch, and I loved training the whole of the Estate of Unrest on myself and coming away with one mob. I don't think the other people in the zone liked that, though.

I really don't see how giving lull to monks can take away from any other class. I highly doubt you'll see someone saying, "Let's go with the monk, bards suck for pulling and everyone knows that's all they can do." Likewise, you won't see someone going with a bard because they think they can pull better than a monk. They both have their uses, and making a monk skill (pulling) better doesn't really detract from any other class, in my personal opinion. If monks are only useful for pulling when lull doesn't work.. then I don't see this as a bad thing, at all. But that should be the final extent of my opinion's elaboration.. don't think I have anything to add.


I know for sure the LDoN adventure I was in would have been too hard without Freyda there.

Aww, thanks. If it's me you meant by "when I saw someone play one well," then you still haven't seen the full extent of a bard's abilities, as I'm incredibly lazy. And, of course, it would've been too hard without you (hooray for necros). But who needs those rangers? :wink: (kidding!)

Kat
December 11th, 2003, 01:49 PM
That was a ranger?
Weird, I thought he was some "Bard Pet" or something.
/giggle

Satarus
December 11th, 2003, 01:55 PM
Its not that giving lull to monks is a nerf towards lull classes, I fear it will make them too powerfull of a puller, where they can pull in every situation. FD is great in many situations like pulling in NToV, pulling PoP bosses and more. While a team of SoS/escape rogues, or a team of FM bards can do well too, you quickly run into recast times or OOM problems.

Raven00x
December 11th, 2003, 02:33 PM
thbpt. bard pet...

i'll have you know i stood up to not one, but two sneezes of that last mob!

Min the Druid
December 11th, 2003, 06:14 PM
I think that this change is a needed one for monks, given the change in the gaming circumstances. They needed a better / faster way to pull and split mobs. It's basically their only class-defining job. Saying that they should only be able to find a job in an experience group some of the time, or that they are only really needed for raids, is what made it unbalanced in the first place. There should be a place for at least one of every class in every exp / LDoN group. The way I usually organize mine is -

Healer - Cleric, Druid
Tank - Warrior, Pally, SK
Slower - Enchanter, Shaman, Bard, BST
DPS (x2) Wizzie, Rogue, Ranger, Mage, BST, Necro, Druid, Monk
Puller / CC - Enchanter, Bard, Monk
(note: druid healer = pally tank, you may need rezzes. not that druids are bad healers, but you never know.)
(note2: if i narrowly defined your class into one of these roles, it was only for the sake of brevity. i know your class can do more.)

The change to monks isn't going to make me stop looking for Bards or Enchanters for groups. They'll still have a very useful place. I don't think it's hurting anyone, except that maybe druids and rangers (harmo classes) won't be invited to groups to pull as much in outdoor zones. That's ok by me. We have other useful things we can do in the group.

Nolequen
December 11th, 2003, 06:20 PM
I think we can see in this thread why monks wanted something like lull to help them pull. If many people canl agree that monk pulling is slow, many other classes do better at pulling than monks, etc... I think we can see why monks might want some additional help in pulling (i.e. lull).

I can remember a time when harmony was the only spell that people would trust. When Clerics and Enchanters (I didn't know any Paladins) would avoid even buying the lull line of spells.

Tenolein
December 11th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Im not whining, In fact I think Rangers are a bit over powered, Especialy when played by someone who knows what they are doing, and I was insisting on grouping with an Teir dal SK and a human Paladin back when we all had that redicoulouse XP penalty and everyone else thought SKs and Paladins were crap (untill they saw us basicaly selecting who would get to have agro Perma lock on a pull, and even whith nuke happy Wizies Triple twisting mellee bards and Backstabing rouges who thought that Backstab agro was broken.)

I wasn't directing that to anyone in particular, it was just stated because it seems to me they are always whining.

As for monks being better pullers than bards, that, for the most part, is true. But the very few bards I grouped with I loved. I have yet to see a bard bite the dust, and they dont have FD. On the other hand, I seen alot of monks, and more than half of them seemed pretty hasty and ended up dying, while the rest were really good. Like I said, it depends on the person playing.

I still stand by my statement saying that I'll take a bard over a monk anyday. I guess the reasoning behind that is not only do bards have Selo's when my SoW runs out in an dungeon, but I only know 2 really good monks, and they aren't in the my level group.

YuriPup
December 11th, 2003, 07:54 PM
Seems like a good thing to me considering that bards (though no desire of their own) stole the monks lunch and FD (as in Faded Memories, which works like the old FD).

Since that was one of the most massive passive nerfs monks recieved (along with the great expantion of lull/paci) its only fair that monks get back their own.

If you don't think bards can pull, you have never seen a 65 bard in action, Faded Memories or not..

Satarus
December 11th, 2003, 08:40 PM
A little tidbit of info, in "the Vision," monks were not a pulling class. Feign Death was "supposed" to be a get out of jail free card. It wasn't untill monks discovered FD-spliting that they became the kings of pulling. It wasn't untill bards started discovering the power of lull that we came back to the front of pulling.

Back when i was raiding kael, we had a necro FD pulling the arena. I was on crowd control and i decided to mem my old level 8 lull song and put it to use to keep repops from accidently aggroing on us. It wasn't untill we wiped that i relized i could use it to just waltz into the area and do CR. I then used it only to help the puller with a few caster types. Back then bards just weren't pullers because no one knew much about lull, but now its a fact of life.

daydrmrzzz
December 12th, 2003, 09:40 AM
there are a few limits to the monk's version of lull that will limit it's usefullness, making it a little more of a help, but not overpowering or detracting from other lullers. It uses a combat ability and the monk can only have one combat ability active at a time, so he can only lull 1 mob, and all his other combat abilities are unavailable till the lull wears off. considering all he loses while the lull is in effect, I dont think it will be used except as a last resort.

Kat
December 12th, 2003, 09:49 AM
thbpt. bard pet...

i'll have you know i stood up to not one, but two sneezes of that last mob!

Yeah but the mob covered it's mouth. :P

Actually I think it depends on how well the player know's their class, and how much they pay attention as to their usefullness.

How does a monk having Lull fit into the "reality" of EQ? How is it explained that the monk lulls mobs? Just curious.

EvilIguana966
December 12th, 2003, 10:15 AM
Monks finally get a way to channel their Ki energy, cool! I like this idea personally, because monks can pull quickly using lull, rather than slowly with FD, and they still have FD for when they over pull. I mean, as a Paladin I do a lot of pulling, but I'm not worried if somone else wants to do it instead... assuming they are competant at it. I mean, I can grab aggro back in a heartbeat if I have more than 10 mana of my several K pool.

Triv
December 12th, 2003, 10:19 AM
I'm actualy in favor of this change, not because I play a Monk, I play a paladin whos main roll in dungeons is to pull (which I might add im great at ;)) but im in favor of it because its raising so much controversy

With the bards saying they're better then the monks and the monks saying they're better than the bards - it must be a good balance

Lenardo
December 12th, 2003, 10:20 AM
think of movies when someone tosses a pebble to distract a guard

shrug

it'll be a nice addition making a good monk good and a bad monk bad ...it is all the player's skill

that and our 40% run speed increase (which stacks with all but bard song run) heh heh heh


if the lulls can increase our controlled pull speed, it can only be good...

plus the fact that at 65th level will will be no longer stunned on pulls = Teh Win. (earth walk discipline 100% stun immunity + 1/3rd damage taken for 2 tics)

Bashadorf
December 12th, 2003, 10:57 AM
not to whine but this could hurt the pallies a little, which made paci pulling popular in so many ldon adventures, now instead of getting the better of your abilities taken by clerics and warriors, you have monks to take what makes you great, bad idea for class balance, BAD

Kat
December 12th, 2003, 11:04 AM
Instead of getting jealous of other classes, I just had a thought. If the classes are becoming a bit more "diversified" then you won't have to get a particular class to fill a particular role. I think people always worry that no one will want their class in a group due to a nerf or a "buff" to another class. ( hey - by the way, what is the opposite of nerf? )

Also, I've always said a hybrid should never be jealous of the "pure" class being better at certain things. Hybrids are for multifunctionality, not being better than each "parent" class.

Raven00x
December 12th, 2003, 11:10 AM
you know...if monks want to take over pac pulling in ldon, that's better for me. why? in order to bust out with those gnarly stuns that everyone loves i have to have mana, and if i'm using it all on pacifying a room before we start pulling....i'm not gonna have as much mana to take care of chain stunning a caster, or to get the attention of a wanderer that decided it preferred the candy-coated casters to my armored self.

Pacpulling made paladins popular? i disagree. People want paladins and SKs not for pulling, but for their snap aggro management. If a mob is bonking a caster, and i want its attention, i hit stun, wait 1.5 seconds, and get a series of love taps from a_pissed-off_goblin00. That's why paladins are popular.

clerics and warriors have abilities superior to mine? cool! that's what they're there for. if i wanted to cast as well as a cleric, i would've rolled a froglok cleric. if i wanted to tank as well as a warrior, i'd have rolled one. I mean...really. What's the point of either parent class if the hybrid is just as good as them? I have my versataility; i can tank when the cleric can't, and i can heal a great deal better than a warrior. Warrior getting a little beat up, and healer is oom? No prob! *heal*. What's this? group needs a tank? /flex. i'm your guy. Pacify is just another service offered by your friendly neighborhood paladin, and in no way should monks getting a similar ability be construed as "taking" anything vital from paladins.

there's my piece.

EvilIguana966
December 12th, 2003, 12:17 PM
I agree mostly with Raven. The only reason I would rather be the puller over somone else is a personal one: I feel safer when I'm controlling the mob infusion. I pull well, safely but not slowly, but I'd be happy to let somone else do that if they are as good as I am at it. I like having aggro before the mob gets back to base, but thats a relatively minor thing given paladin aggro abilities and now, monk FD.

The only issue might arrive if Warriors become the best aggroers again, monks become the best pullers again, and druids actually startt healing as well as Paladins below 57 (yeah right, like SoE would do that *snicker*). Till then I feel safe *grin*

Dravvan
December 12th, 2003, 03:13 PM
So do we know of a target date this is going to all be happening?

Serresrelic
December 12th, 2003, 03:17 PM
I believe the patch on December 16th is supposed to include the new melee system changes, last I heard.

Dreleen
December 13th, 2003, 05:02 AM
Hey monks having Lull mean one less crap spell to keep memmed! Woot!

Also cut down on the time I stand there twidling my thumbs watching the

monk stand up and fall down bout 80 times till he singles one hehehe.