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Reymi_VZ
December 14th, 2003, 04:42 AM
I admit I am a bit suprised. Perhaps now there can be some closure and a rebuilding of the infrastructure and social norms.

Min the Druid
December 14th, 2003, 05:40 AM
Holy cow!

Trastero
December 14th, 2003, 05:44 AM
This is a great time to say thanks to our troops, both overseas and at home. Way to go! Keep up the great work!

Erling E.
December 14th, 2003, 07:31 AM
It's also a great time to say thanks to all the other troops that's not US. Don't forget them. There are plenty of British people there. Heck, even Norway have troops there.

So, what do you think they will do to him? I'm sceptical. Something tells me the US wants to do their way with him, and that would be a very bad. They need to take him to war court, not put him in Guantanamo.

Satarus
December 14th, 2003, 09:03 AM
How do they know its the real Saddam and not some body double that he had a ton of?

Karimi
December 14th, 2003, 09:08 AM
Anyone notice he looks ALOT like Karl Marx now ?

Erling E.
December 14th, 2003, 09:33 AM
How do they know its the real Saddam and not some body double that he had a ton of?

They did a DNA test on him. On the other hand, if you want to go "all out" on the conspiracy theories, you could ask yourself: "Is this just a ploy by the US government?" :-)

Leldari
December 14th, 2003, 09:35 AM
Personally I was thinking Charles Manson. They took dental x-rays and checked known scars to identify him. They are also doing DNA testing but that takes a couple of days.

Kordesh
December 14th, 2003, 09:58 AM
They didn't kidnap saddam, they kidnapped santa clause. Blast it, they did it again! Honestly though, I think this was more of a token victory, since from the looks of him, he hasn't been doing much but crawling through dirt and looking for food the past few months. I highly doubt this is going to stop anything. If anything, it might make the rebel factions even more active.

Ciarin
December 14th, 2003, 10:47 AM
I think whichever country caught gets to keep him.

Pike Tha Blodd
December 14th, 2003, 10:51 AM
hah, finders keepers!!

::snickers::
can you imgaine 'dubya' when he heard the news, runing through the white house in his whity-tightys and a ten-gallon hat, shooting off two pistols yelling YEEE HAWWW

Satarus
December 14th, 2003, 10:52 AM
hah, finders keepers!!

: runing through the white house in his whity-tightys and a ten-gallon hat,

Now theres a mental picture I do NOT need.

Ciarin
December 14th, 2003, 10:52 AM
yea, I believe most texans do that.......right Coffee?

MCW
December 14th, 2003, 11:33 AM
does DNA testing just take long, or is it the paper work?

Kaylen
December 14th, 2003, 12:31 PM
They have to send it to a lab. The lab runs tests. Then they send the results back. This I learned from TV (mixed in with a little sense), so it could be slightly different.. but I'd imagine it'd take a day or so to run the tests to make sure it matches.

But who knows, even then it could be his grandfather. I thought Saddam was killed by a pack of wild boars some time ago.

Coffee
December 14th, 2003, 12:33 PM
/em Off topic to Ciarin
Only gun I've ever fired is the m-16, but then I'm not your typical Texan. The stereotypical texan is the creation of Hollywood and does not really exist except in characature.
/end off topic

Yah, glad they finally caught the bugger. As to what to do with him? Well if he is executed we risk creating a martyr from a madman. I like the idea of putting him in a small cage and suspend that cage in the center of downtown Bagdad so the widows and orphans can throw rotten vegetables at him.

Oh and Erling, I don't know how things go in Norway, but take it from me the U.S. government is far far too incompetent and inept to carry out any kind of conspiracy to any measurable degree of success.

Kordesh
December 14th, 2003, 12:43 PM
Shadow governments my friend. [/conspiracy]

FuzzyBear
December 14th, 2003, 12:55 PM
I can't see martyrdom. The media feeds in the US are constantly touting how his people hate him. Dancing in the streets and all. Granted I trust the media about as far as I can throw it, but aside from true religious fanatics (Anyone else see a similarity between middle-eastern loyalties to rulers and the Pharonic concept?), I don't see him garnering a following.

DNA testing is about as solid as carbon dating. That is to say, hardly at all. In the same way c19 can show you things you *want* to see, so can DNA. It takes a REAL expert and a fair amount of time to compare results long enough to get even a decent picture of accuracy. And the test isn't exactly instant either. In most court cases, DNA 'evidence' is not enough for a conviction by itself.

Someone said something about tatoos and scarring marks being confirmed my the CIA from a description of several mistresses, but there again, he had 300 or so doubles, some surgically altered IIRC.

If we got him, GREAT, in my opinion.
Might cause a few problems over there for the rest of the world, depending on how it's handled.

I heard something about trying to get him tried in Iraq, because some international law won't allow the death penalty for him outside of his own country. Can anyone clear that one up?

EvilIguana966
December 14th, 2003, 02:09 PM
DNA testing is about as solid as carbon dating. That is to say, hardly at all. In the same way c19 can show you things you *want* to see, so can DNA. It takes a REAL expert and a fair amount of time to compare results long enough to get even a decent picture of accuracy. And the test isn't exactly instant either. In most court cases, DNA 'evidence' is not enough for a conviction by itself.

False. DNA testing is extremely reliable, And the more of it you test, the smaller the chance that anyone else in the world will ever have a matching set. DNA Evidence is basicaly foolproof, aside from the lab just lying to a courtroom about their results. The trick is convincing the jury that the evidence is relevant. If you take a blood sample, and you have a reliable sample to compare, you can say with certainty that they come from the same person, but you have to have other evidence to say that that information is meaningful.

It DOES take time to do the tests. Exactly how long i can't say. Part of why it may take time to get lab results back is that the testing facilities may have a que of samples lined up to perform tests on. The actual physical work on the sample may only require a day of work or something.

As for Carbon 14 dating, it's a very effective way to date organic matter, but it ISN'T pinpoint accurate. You will get dates accurate to within a few thousand years depending on the sample. But to say you can make either of these show what you want is preposterous. Assuming you know how to use the equipment you will get repeatable results.

Serresrelic
December 14th, 2003, 02:24 PM
Yeah carbon dating is very effective. Like the jaw bone they found on a farm in Montana. Carbon-dating determined it to be the jaw bone of an exinct mammel that lived around 200,000 years ago...

Later the owner of the farm admitted it was the jaw bone of one of his pigs that died 12 years earlier.

Also, at this point it looks like Saddam is going to be tried by a war crimes tribunal of the Iraqi governing council, not the US. But, that could change.

togashi
December 14th, 2003, 03:33 PM
Depending on the tests done for DNA, it can take a couple of hours, or it can take upwards to a week. The paternity tests you see on Maury take place within 24 hours. The one they used for the OJ trial takes a lot longer. I think that with the dental x rays, plus the known scar examination, you'd need only a very simple DNA test to confirm that it is, in fact, the real Saddam.

And as far as Texans go, they're a little different, and that's what I like about em.

Erling E.
December 14th, 2003, 07:12 PM
I think whichever country caught gets to keep him.

Absolutely not. Let's say America suddenly got a dictator (who was american) who reigned like Hitler and Saddam. Then iraqi forces managed to capture him. Would you want him to stand on trail in the Iraq?

Of course not. Saddam must stand on trail in his own country, because that is where he did the criminal and evil deeds. It is the people of Iraq that has suffered under his regime, and they are the ones who are in need of justice.

Also, as Bush said, Saddam will now get the justice he refused millions of other Iraqis to have. That is important. It is a symbol of the civilized US striking against the uncivilized groups of terrorism. The only way to achieve true justice in this case, is to have him trailed in Iraq.

If he is trailed in the US, there is a much bigger chance that he will go down in middle-east history as a martyr. And you don't want that. The iraqi people needs closure.

Anothing thing, we will never be sure if this is Saddam. Saddam had several look-alikes who was striking in resemblance. Sure, his captors will of course know his true identity, but this might very well be a conspiracy. I'm not saying it is, but it's fun to play around with the thought. For all we know, this is one of his look-alikes hired by the US to make it look like they caught Saddam. The US has everything to gain by letting the iraqi people see Saddam being captured.

And that's purely a conspiracy theory :-) We will never know, hehe.

Karimi
December 14th, 2003, 07:25 PM
What if Saddam had clones made ? Like dolly the sheep.

Ciarin
December 14th, 2003, 07:55 PM
Whichever country captures him, gets to keep him. He's our POW. Same thing happened in WW2. The nazi's we caught we kept in our guard till the trial, then we executed them. OF course the trial was held in their own country, which is cool. He's our prisoner, but I think he can be tried in his country with a neutral judge panel.

He'll be in our custody, and we agree to do whatever the court decides.

in my opinion.

Saethori
December 14th, 2003, 08:20 PM
Regardless of whether it's 'real' or not, the news makes people happy. And if it raises happiness and morale, it's good, even if it's a little stretching of the truth.

I think it's kind of akin to telling your kid that his pet cat ran away, because you don't want to tell him that the kid's feeding ol Whiskers buckets of carbonated sugar each day caused her to spontaneously implode.

Or...something like that. Yeah.

Drakenred
December 14th, 2003, 08:30 PM
DNA testing is about as solid as carbon dating. That is to say, hardly at all. In the same way c19 can show you things you *want* to see, so can DNA. It takes a REAL expert and a fair amount of time to compare results long enough to get even a decent picture of accuracy. And the test isn't exactly instant either. In most court cases, DNA 'evidence' is not enough for a conviction by itself.

False. DNA testing is extremely reliable, And the more of it you test, the smaller the chance that anyone else in the world will ever have a matching set. DNA Evidence is basicaly foolproof, aside from the lab just lying to a courtroom about their results. The trick is convincing the jury that the evidence is relevant. If you take a blood sample, and you have a reliable sample to compare, you can say with certainty that they come from the same person, but you have to have other evidence to say that that information is meaningful.

It DOES take time to do the tests. Exactly how long i can't say. Part of why it may take time to get lab results back is that the testing facilities may have a que of samples lined up to perform tests on. The actual physical work on the sample may only require a day of work or something.

As for Carbon 14 dating, it's a very effective way to date organic matter, but it ISN'T pinpoint accurate. You will get dates accurate to within a few thousand years depending on the sample. But to say you can make either of these show what you want is preposterous. Assuming you know how to use the equipment you will get repeatable results.

Hello, Ny names is Steve, I live in Houston Texas, the City where the crime lab pulled its DNA tests out of its Butt after finding out what they Police wanted, and lied about the results in court.

Keiran
December 14th, 2003, 08:37 PM
The fact that some people abused the system does not mean that DNA evidence isn't accurate. It just means you have to get someone who won't lie about it.

Erling E.
December 14th, 2003, 08:49 PM
Whichever country captures him, gets to keep him. He's our POW. Same thing happened in WW2. The nazi's we caught we kept in our guard till the trial, then we executed them. OF course the trial was held in their own country, which is cool. He's our prisoner, but I think he can be tried in his country with a neutral judge panel.


Yeah, of course he is your prisoner of war. But it's natural, right and to the best of peace and prosperity of Iraq (and thus the US campaign) that he is trailed before an iraqi court.

Pike Tha Blodd
December 15th, 2003, 08:17 AM
the gun comment, im from texas, figured it validated the comment, and i own two pistols a shotgun and rifle

DNA evidence is relatively accurate, thats why they did dental records and scar studies too, if DNA was 100% they wouldnt need other tests, but its not blind-bat retarded either so they still use it.

Iraqi is run by the U.S. right now, so even if we tried him there, we (U.S.) would still be the ones in control, and to bring him back here would just cause problems, we got enough zealot patriots that he wouldnt live long enough to see trial, whereas in Iraqi they can just put him back in the hole till his hearing

Erling E.
December 15th, 2003, 09:19 AM
Iraqi is run by the U.S. right now, so even if we tried him there, we (U.S.) would still be the ones in control, and to bring him back here would just cause problems, we got enough zealot patriots that he wouldnt live long enough to see trial, whereas in Iraqi they can just put him back in the hole till his hearing

Incorrect. A war crime court was set up last week, consisting solely of Iraqi members as far as I know.

Isador Marilith
December 15th, 2003, 10:32 AM
I think that since there is a new government in Iraq, that they should be allowed to have dibs on what goes on with him. It would be a really strong political statement to all of the remaining militia that they don't want to have anything to do with terrorism.

I'm really supprised that he didn't pull a Hitler. I mean, he had a gun, and rather that allowing his sworn enemy get ahold of him, he'd prolly just end it himself. And after decades of mass genocide, slaughters of his own family and leading his militia with the "kill one american and your place is heaven is secure" thing, you would have figured that he would have tried something other than... "I give up". I'm not complaining here, just supprised.

If anything, this has got to be a blow to the egos of his militia. If we were to kill him, on sight. I believe he would have become a maryter. This way we can let which ever country, or even the UN, try him for crimes against humanity and be done with it.

I was watching the BBC last night, and someone said something that was right on the money. It was to the effect of...
"No matter how whom decides to try to work this for what ever political gain... That doesn't matter. What does, is that Justice has just given itself a Christmas present".
Thats about as much of it that I can remember, so it's not word for word. /shrug you get the idea.

Personally I've always favored the bungee hanging! Just the thought of it.... the picture.... lol. ;D

Tenolein
December 15th, 2003, 11:14 AM
Let Iraq have Hussein.

But they better be DAMN prepared to give up Osama when he is found(if he already isn't dead).

SymbioteVIII
December 15th, 2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Son-of-a-gun


What if Saddam had clones made ? Like dolly the sheep.

If this were the case, then in another 60 years we might have a remarkable Saddam Hussein lookalike on our hands. Current methods of cloning are to simply (well, ok, not simply) take DNA from something, stick it in a womb, and watch it grow. it would still take 20 years to get a 20 year old copy of something. And Saddam is what, 67?

Satarus
December 15th, 2003, 01:00 PM
Cloning is just making an identicle twin of someone. They are still a unique person who just happens to share the same DNA as someone else. They also would age just like a normal person. So lets say I wanted an exact clone of myself, I would have to wait 21 years, and I would then have a clone 21 years younger than me, but he would still be a unique person who just looks like me and might have a few things in common.

Darley Marilith
December 15th, 2003, 03:09 PM
I'm not a very political person, at least I dont think so. But there are certain topics I will voice an opinion on, and this is one of them. I think a UN trial would be best. The reason I say this is because the trial would be held in another country other than Iraq. Saddam has a huge following within his tribe. He made their lives better while making the other 2 main tribes of the country suffer. If the trial were to be held in Iraq, then the people responsible for keeping him jailed would have an incredible task at hand. I dont think the Iraqi people will be in any kind of position for at least another 5 years to be able to hold him anywhere within that country safely. I believe they will need closure quicker than that.

togashi
December 15th, 2003, 03:12 PM
On the DNA test thread, the type of test run, the type of media used to run the assay, and the amount of DNA available determine how long the test takes. Queues can be subverted with proper motivation. This is the kind of thing that would jump to the top of the list.

As far as cloning goes, it took literally thousands of embryos and several years using mid 90s technology to produce Dolly the cloned sheep. There's a worldwide moratorium on human cloning in the world scientific community. This is not to say people haven't tried, but it would take a few more years with the present technology to produce a viable embryo of a cloned human.

Tenolein
December 15th, 2003, 06:38 PM
K, some people don't know this, so I'm relaying the information.

Saddam was captured 1am CST Saturday(if I remember correctly). They ran a quick DNA test, along with dental records and the visual markings to prove he was in fact Saddam. Once the DNA results came in and showed this, they relayed the good news to reporters Sunday morning, and thats when we found out. Obviously they are running more tests on him, but Sunday after Saddam got a bit cleaned up, we allowed Saddam and the current Iraqi leaders to talk. As some of the leaders we're torchered under and by Saddam, you can imagine the heated discussions they had. All in all, they reconized him, and he supposedly reconized one or two of them. With those 'facts' that I read in multiple papers and sites, thats enough information for me to prove that he's the "REAL" Saddam.

Kaylen
December 15th, 2003, 06:45 PM
Does anyone have the link to that "The Real Saddam" flash thing? That was pretty amusing..

Oh, I found it (http://www.toccionline.com/creations/realhussein/). More using Google..

FuzzyBear
December 15th, 2003, 06:46 PM
Hey! Neat! Guess my sources were off. Anyone have any articles written from an unbiased perspective (the more scientific and technical, the better) about DNA testing and Carbon dating? I'd love to brush up ;)

Gnomish
December 15th, 2003, 08:55 PM
I actually had a mental image of Georgie dancing about the whitehouse singing 'I GOT HIM I GOT HIM I GOT HIM' hahahaha...
Saddam is not going to be taken to the states, they will probably keep him in their undisclosed location in Iraq... The new Tribunal probably will judge him, not an american court
on a totally unrelated thingy about Saddam: I really like his beard like that... I don't know why, he looks less scary or something.. rofl

yizuman
December 17th, 2003, 11:55 AM
I actually had a mental image of Georgie dancing about the whitehouse singing 'I GOT HIM I GOT HIM I GOT HIM' hahahaha...
Saddam is not going to be taken to the states, they will probably keep him in their undisclosed location in Iraq... The new Tribunal probably will judge him, not an american court
on a totally unrelated thingy about Saddam: I really like his beard like that... I don't know why, he looks less scary or something.. rofl

I have a friend who is a Pakistan native and has a family member living in Kuwait stated that he's at the US Base there. I can't say if it's accurate, but it makes sense for him to be there away from Iraq so none of his friends can try and spring him.

But if it's true, then the irony is that he's held in a country that he invaded over 10 years ago. :lol: :P

Yiz

Nerrul
December 17th, 2003, 03:37 PM
The war stopped being a fight against evil and became a Where's Waldo search among the Saddam Look-alikes long ago. Well, back to my hole I go.

Tenolein
December 17th, 2003, 09:46 PM
Define irony: Someone who says "The war stopped being a fight against evil and became a Where's Waldo search among the Saddam Look-alikes long ago. Well, back to my hole I go." has an avatar that looks like Saddam in a way. =o

Kaylen
December 17th, 2003, 10:12 PM
What are you talking about? His avatar looks nothing like Santa Claus.

I still can't believe we captured Santa..

Ciarin
December 17th, 2003, 10:23 PM
LOLIMM @ tenolein

good one.

Erling E.
December 17th, 2003, 10:36 PM
Tenolein, your avatar has faint resemblances to Mussolini :-)

j/k

Tenolein
December 18th, 2003, 11:18 AM
I know.. =P