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Mordican
December 16th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Woody Edit: This board is NOT the right place to question SOE staff in regards to class issues. That is the purpose of class boards and/or the SOE boards.

You can talk to US about the changes and state your opinion, but you won't be using the GU Forums to assault the SOE staff in an attempt to get them to answer somewhere else.

Mordican
December 16th, 2003, 06:31 PM
How was it an assult? I know they read these boards and other people have asked thm direct questions in the past. I did not use profane language, I did not attack them, I asked why a change was made. That is all. The mage boards are in a rukus right now and all the little kiddies are posting so many profane requests its chaos. The only remotely offending thing I said was "This is not a fix, its is a nerf no matter how you put it" You constantly complain about Warriors needing changes and upgrades. I also know this is your forum and you run it how you see fit but explain to me what was so offending about asking questions regarding a change. /gu is part of the EQ community and this is an issure that has an impact on part of that community. Had I made a flaming attack on them out of frustration then yes, by all means the post should have been deleted, but I did not. What rules did I violate?

And if this gets me banned from the boards then so be it. I caer about my class just as much as anyone playing EQ. This change reduces my affectives in group situations more then any other change SoE has ever done to my class. Changing ModRods last year was the right thing to do, that was unabalenced... They gave a very long, complete message stating why and that was good. All we got this time was "Sorry, I was just told of this going live, I will try better in the future"

I'm sorry but with all the time I have invested into my class we deserve better...

Woody
December 16th, 2003, 06:46 PM
Easy Way #10: I am a board dictator. What I say goes. Arguing with me in regards to board policy is an unwise course of action.

---

The next time you have an issue with something I've done with a post then I recommend you PM me about it. But, since you didn't, and obviously can't take a hint as to my intent, then I'm more than happy to be more blunt with you.

I don't care what YOU feel is appropriate for this board.

My post states quite clearly that there are two places where you should ask SOE folks questions regarding your class. Those two places are your class boards and the SOE boards where appropriate.

I also said quite clearly that you could talk to us about your issues. But you will not use this board to try to get the attention of the SOE folks. They post here because it is a relative safe haven from the storm.

I have never used this forum to directly ask them questions about issues I have with my class.

I have however used this forums to talk about class issues with other GU community folk, whether it was part of a comic or not. And hey, how about that, I invited you to do the same.

Use my boards to try to get the attention of SOE folks again in relation to your class, or question me further on this issue, and I will ban you.

Be glad I haven't already. You know as well as I do that you've teetered on the brink more than once.

Mordican
December 16th, 2003, 08:08 PM
Woody Edit: I added in paragraph breaks as best I could.

My revised edition

They are effectively removing our "class" form of postitive mana regen. Enchanters have their KEI line of spells and a 100% mana regen AA once an hour. Necros get their Lich forms. Wizzards get their little pets and a Gather Mana type spell. Mages had Modrods (nerfed) and Pet Canni and a 6man/tick spell...

(Pet Canni explained)
Pet Canni is/was eating your pet for positive mana regen. Unfortuatnly in PoP and High End luclin zones (And LDoN) they introduced items that drastically increased our abilities to Pet Canni (HP to Mana conversion) In a nutshell The more HP your pet had, the more Mana you could reclaim. RE was a 1/10 HP to Mana conversion. Rathe's Son costs 400 Mana and has 4800 HP. Naked with no AAs it was 80/cast regen. Add in mana preservation items, spell haste, specilization, AA's, and focus items and mages could attain rates as high as 200/tick mana regen. Time mages could go as high as 340/Tick. The changes ot RE and the IRE ability reduces the HP convertion to 1/20.. So a 6k Rathe's Son (Highest possbile focus) would net 300Mana back with the lowest possible mana cost(average) of 300... 200 if you were one of the extreme few who got a Summon Efficeny4(nolonger drops) item and even then it only has a minimum effectiveness of 12% and your still SOL. IRE was mana reclaim for mana cast.. IE spell cost 400 mana, you got 400 mana. Now its 90-99% of the mana cost of YOU to the spell(Instead of the base mana cost for the spell). fully focused and AAd out mine cost about 300 per cast... so I would only get 270-297 back instead of 400 now.

(A Mage's role as defined by SOE)
Mages were always considered secondary DPS dealers thanks to our burst damage abilities... We have always lacked the agro management of Wizzards, the overall abilities of Necros and the Mem blurr/charm/mez/etc abilities of Chanters.

(SOE's view on Pets and their ramifications)
SOE has always said our pets were the balencing factor... Truth is our pets were barely better then other class pets to begin with, it was the abilites of the caster tied in with the pet that made the difference. Mages get no root/snare line of spells that all other int casters have (Our earth pet has it...) We get no rune type spells (Damage absortion) and pre 51 4 of our spells were always Pet spells. Mages have the worst DoTs in the game, Druid nukes are as good, if not better thanks to their cold line(Our big nukes are unsable in Zones like Tower of SolRo and PoFire, and we simply cannot solo compared to the other INT based casters. Other then utility spells like Call of the Hero, Modrods, and the focus items we summoned we were always one step behind the other classes. The only thing we had going for us WAS our mana regen abilities. They have now taken that away from us. The only situation where this is not relevant now is on raids where you have Bards, Beastlords, Enchanters, Necros, etc that can help maintain mana.

(Spell Agro since we are considered the secondary Nukin Class)
Due to our spell agro we could never go OOM without overagroing the tanks since we also have no agro control like Wizzards (The concussion lines).

(Conclusions)
Basically they have taken our one ability that made us able to solo/group comparitilvey to other int casters and thrown it out the door with less then a 2 days notice and ABSOLUTLEY NO EXPLAINATION!! Unfortuatnly the majority of the mage community is oblivious to this and ignorance is on full display on the mage boards now. To change something so fundamental to a class with less then two days notice and no reasoning is just absurd. Mages are already a rareity and this really does nothing to help those wanting to be mages. So many of us have spent so much time working for equipment and AAs to help better our abilities. It really is a slap in the face and proves SoE's lack of interest in our class. Every change SoE makes to our class narrows out abilities.

(SoE's idea of Balencing us out)
We have an elemental charm now.. usable only by a level 65 character. Outside of BoT and the Tak LDoN zone this spell is worthless unless your a farmer. They are going to give us a dire charm AA... summoned only... How many zones are there summoned mobs?? (They even changed the fire elementals in PoFire to regular mobs) We have a summoned mezz type spell.. 63 only... extremely limited due to the lack of summoned mobs and it has an extremely low level cap compared to the same Enchater based spells that work on any mob.

(Pet Canni the equalizer)
The great equalizer in all of this was what we could do with our pets and the benifits they provided. Pet Canni was perhaps the biggest advantage and now they are taking that away. A mage will be forced to live behind his pets even more and become a crack baby like all other caster classes that are not INT based casters. How can this ability be overbalenced compared to a Necro for example? They have far superior DoT spells, the ability to snare... FD... Pet FD... Highest mana regen in the game under normal circuimstances, can Rez people, have ungodly stong spells aginst undead (Compare the amount of undead mobs to summoned mobs).. the list goes on and on... Encahters.. My god did you see what they could do when PoP first came out? And lets be honest... you cannot raid without an Enchanter. They were Gods... Wizzards have always been the #1 DPS class. Period. SoE has said that mages were a viable alternative DPS class for Wizzards.. well guess what... The only reason we could compare was because of our mana regen abilities. In a short duration fight Wizzards are king, in extended groups, LDoN's etc... Mage's Mana Regen was the equalizer... Well not anymore. We are slaves to KEI again. We cannot evac, we cannot group buff except for a Damage Shield. Our crowd control is off tanking with pets in the vast majority of situation, etc... The list goes on and on and to be honest up until now that did not bother me. I am good at being a mage, but they just took away one of the fundamental reason I was able to maintaine my abilities as a mage. My DPS will fall by at least 50% and it was already 4th-5th on the list( no matter what I said beore) compared to Rangers, Rogues, Wizzards and Necros... Sustained DPS for long durations was my strength and they took that away from ALL mages.

I apologize if this gets a little disorganized, but I am typing from the heart here. I have spent so much time to get to where I am in this game an now the very basis of my game play is being taken away.

Billybobtheranger
December 16th, 2003, 08:15 PM
/boggle, why did i read that Realllllly long paragraph.



Anyways...

So what if your charm don't work except 1 spot..

Druids Have animal charm....hrmm....that'll let us work on all the lowest level creatures you can imagine.

Dark Tyger
December 16th, 2003, 08:17 PM
Mordi, reclaim energy was never intended to generate posative mana flow. They're finally fixing a bug. Your class still has a form of posative mana regen, anyway. They're called "mod rods", and mages did just fine with them for a long time.

Jishia
December 16th, 2003, 08:21 PM
This is a good way to get banned from GUcomic Boards, if you have a problem /report or e-mail the Devs yourself, dont heap it on Woody this is NOT what he is here for, much less heap it on Alan2 as I read it in your original post, he is Customer Relations now and was not hired to be Joan of Arc and burned at the stake everytime someone feels their class was diserviced in some way.

Argueing this situation is not wrong, argueing it with Alan or Woody IS, you need to learn the proper medium for the frustration. not doing so will mean a great many ignoring you then hearing you out.

KiTA
December 16th, 2003, 08:26 PM
Wait, am I the only one who sees a problem with a 200-340 a tick mana regen? I never made it up that high so I donno, but as a Professional Noob that seems pretty high.

Is that normal or what? @.@

Kaylen
December 16th, 2003, 08:28 PM
I stopped reading that after a few sentences, but it seems like you're talking about Reclaim Energy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Reclaim Energy is only supposed to give back a percentage of the mana you used to get your pet - not help you regen mana. The devs don't need to give a long explanation to ease the suffering when they're fixing an obvious bug.

Making fear unable to be cast on PCs is a nerf. Changing Reclaim Energy to do what it says it does is a fix. If there was a bug that allowed Shadow Knights or Paladins to dual weild, and they fixed it - it'd be a fix, no matter how unfair the classes thought it was.

Don't get me wrong, I can see your position - I'm rather upset about the bard lull "fix." But, if it's truly a fix, they're going to fix it.. so there's not much that can be done, though if you don't have a class mana regen and everyone else does, maybe you should /feedback with suggestions about that.

Woody
December 16th, 2003, 08:33 PM
I told Mord that he should post about his class. Thanks for your support Jish, but it's a bit inflamatory and unnecessary. Mord is trying to speak his peace here, so we're going to let that play out now, okay?

Jishia
December 16th, 2003, 09:07 PM
Sorry, I get caried away sometimes :lol:

Dragonel
December 16th, 2003, 10:26 PM
Wow, I'm sorry Mord, I'm way out of the loop when it comes to class-balance in EQ (But you wanna talk mochies? I methere).

Could you, er, put a couple paragraph breaks in there, so I can try and digest it? :-(

Mordican
December 16th, 2003, 10:40 PM
Well I did as I was asked as a result of my original post but it was a rather long winded rant to some. Here are the Key points...

A Necro just sitting there in Skelly Form on a horse/lizzard can get up to 100/mana tick. This happens no matter what... be it spell casting, kiting whatever. They have the best Mana regen for doing nothing

Enchanters just sitting there by themselves get over 50mana/tick. They get the abilities to charm, Mezz, Memblur, cast KEI type spells, etc... once every 60 minutes they can Gather Mana for 100% mana regen

Wizzards just nuke.. Plain and simple. They are the best at it. Their mana regen is roughly 40+mana a tic sitting on a lizzard. Keep in mind their DPS and Mana efficeny and low resist spells are the best in the game.

A Mage just sitting there in Water form can generate 30+Mana a tick. ModRods now have a 5minute delay between use and return 990Mana over 15 minutes for the cost of Mana and HP per rod/click

For a mage to Pet Canni they had to completely stop what they were doing and Canni for 1-2 minutes straight to regain mana. With out the Suspend Minion line of AA, Quick Summoning AA, Spell Casting Mastery AA, Improved Relcaim Focus, etc... It was very low regen until you invested considerable time and gear into it.

Combine that with our lack of abilities compared to the rest of the INT class and you will understand. SoE has trivialized content as the game progresses and has made our Canni abilities better as a result. This was not a bug, this was not an exploit. Reclaim Energy has worked the same since day 1 of Everquest. They knew about this ever since Velious, they saw it in the Luclin and PoP Betas, getting a focus in Luclin+ requires access to Vex Thal and Plane of Time, getting the LDoN is 761 points in Takish. My point is that in order to be a Canni Mage you had to work for it. It was not handed to us on a silver platter. That is what they re taking away.

Woody
December 16th, 2003, 10:45 PM
Well, being that I formatted that post, I read exactly what it said. And, after doing so... **shakes his head** I can't see any reason why they WOULDN'T "fix it".

I'm positive that THAT kind of mana return was NEVER the intention of that line of spells. The fact that it became so borders on exploitation.

As a warrior, I'm sympathetic to any class whose abilities are lessened in any way, but this action on SOE's part does NOT stir me into a realm where I feel I need to rant, rave, and draw a comic to support it.

Sorry for your loss Mord, but based on my understanding of how this game works... that was a "fix" not a "nerf".

Dragonel
December 16th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Hmm... Okay, I read you, it's harder to get back mana... Not being used to games where regen is particularly difficult (not as I understand it is in EQ), I still have to ask- Is that so bad?

I was under the impression that mages were chiefly pet-casters, as such their main line of work is creating pets, buffing pets, sometimes buffing their allies, and then pointing at what they want their pet to kill... This doesn't seem like it absolutely requires a constant flow of mana to me.

Jem Rdan
December 16th, 2003, 11:04 PM
Man... I've NEVER seen so many topics locked on a forum!

Check out the magetower forums, there's a link to em on mobhunter (I can't recall the URL)... the mods in general forum had to lock more than a dozen topics that sprung up about this, trying to keep it condensed in 1 or 2 threads.

Kweil
December 16th, 2003, 11:20 PM
Bah if you think your mana regen is bad just look at bard's mana regen. Heck we get a fair number of mana regen spells that don't even effect us :)

Kaylen
December 16th, 2003, 11:42 PM
Mage's, as I understand it, are the second best nukers right behind wizards, as well as their summoning stuff, and a number of other things someone who actually plays one can go into.

They hardly point at something and tell their pet to attack it, then sit back and watch TV. Even Beastlords are much more involved than that.

Nosferatu
December 17th, 2003, 01:21 AM
His mana regen "per tick" is a bit off. It wasn't that much, and I personally wouldn't say it was unbalancing. However, it is a fix, not a nerf.

The reason Mages are so upset, is because in order for this Pet-Canni to work as best as possible, it cost numerous AA points as well as a LOT of pp. You truly had to have specific items and AAs before Pet-Canni became "worth it".

Mages all over have spent all this AA and Plat to be able to do just this...in fact, many feel that the AAs given to Mages were set up just for this ability to Pet-Canni.

Most of them are still mad, because they don't realize their AA points are going to be refunded to them. They are more than welcome to buy something else with the points.

But nothing changes the fact that it is a fix. Just like the bard lull and Extended Notes AA ability fix. They were not working as intended, but soon will be.

Mages have many purposes. A Mage, in the Takish LDoN advents is one of the best Crowd Control classes available. For virtually no mana loss, they can keep 2-3 mobs mezzed (as long as they are summoned, which Takish is full of). That's still very good.

Mages are still masters of pets and summoning. While Beastlords may have better pet heals, the overall goodness of Mages and their pets shows their dominance. Sure, not by a HUGE margin, but enough to be able to brag. ;)

Every class gets upset when they perceive a nerf coming their way. It's always been that way, and will probably always be that way.

I just pray there is enough common sense in both classes (mage and bard) not to pull something stupid, like a "picket line" type outcry. They will lose a lot of respect from me if that happens.

Undraxis
December 17th, 2003, 01:50 AM
my main is a mage, tho i dont have close to the aas and equipment needed to make efficient use of petcanni, in a roleplaying stance(DND Vet), i dont find it comfortable using our pets in this manner. i cant imagine my mage being so indifferent to his companions as to just sacrifice em to regenerate their stores of energy, unless of course he was a dark elf.
without petcanni, i still manage to have a decent level of mana during runs. and in raids, i have enuff buffs from the other classes to make up for the intensity of those situations.

i like the concept of keeping a particular pet alive equipped and buffed rather than use em as a disposable source of mana. but then again, its just me. maybe im just too sentimental to old jaborer... :P

Undraxis Skye
65 Magician of Quellious

Salerk
December 17th, 2003, 02:47 AM
I would not say Magi's are a bad DPS myself. ok i only got to 54 before i left to explore other games, but i could out damage Necromancers, and Wizzys in a LDoN mission (never raided enough to say, and i was not a soloer so that to me was no problem if thay could do it better)

Necromancers dots never finished only where part usefull and wizzys did not have the pet to compensate so had to nuke more and go OOM more because of it.

I never once had a problem keeping up. the 3X mod rod while only bing 5min timer was still usefull in a crunsh when you needed that little burst.

oh and yes im an Evocation Magi. refused to go Conj since i allways saw pet cani as an exploit. heh, guess EQ desided it was also, dont see it as a nurf, look at it as a way to break free of the cookie cutter.

Poerdby Mypet
December 17th, 2003, 03:13 AM
background about me: I play a 65 mage. My guild is in Ele's and I have all my important spells. I have aa's in different places, but never got IRE.

I asked around and found that IRE was a very bad thing to invest in. Pre-PoP it was awesome, it gave us a way to canni pets. But post-PoP and with rathe's son, it sorta reversed itself. I know mages that have it and wish they didnt, and now will be very happy.

With the AA: they canni using the Monster Summoning 2 spell and recieve back about +3% mana after casting/reclaiming. it is the best pet they found to use the canni with. and they consume a malachite per cast if they dont have the aa that makes them conserv reagents guaranteed(whole different issue though)

Without the AA: I canni with Rathe's Son. I gain about +5% per cast/reclaim. A very quick way to go from oom to 100% mana. and there is what i believe to be a glitch with 62+ pets where they do not consume/require to have malachite.

so for 65 mages with the rathe son pet and IRE . this will be a nice improvement... while yes it does hurt those that dont have 65 yet, they will get there :)

Suspend Minion makes canni petting soo much easier ..

but overall, i am happy to see an AA that i would never have gotten removed from the possibilities.

SagePoerdby Mypet (www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=429125)
Epic Arch Convoker of Veredi Arcanum (www.verediarcanum.com)
Cazic Thule Server

Arishia
December 17th, 2003, 04:06 AM
Just wanted to mention a correction, (Though it's rather minor I suppose) that the Enchanter AA Gather Mana isn't usable every hour. It's base is every 2 and a quarter hours. With a bunch of AAs, I seem to recall getting it down to every 1 and a half hours (By a bunch, I mean like 10 - 12, though I'm a bit fuzzy without going and looking, and that's not counting the AA you need to get Gather mana).

Kinda interesting that they changed Reclaim after all this time, I know a couple mages that won't be real enthused by the fix.

Mordican
December 17th, 2003, 04:14 AM
Actually it will not. With the change to IRE you will not get mana back based on the original cost of the spell. You will get 99% of the mana spent casting the spell. Focus, AAs, etc.. do not matter. The Refund of IRE affect a very small percentage of mages since you could always Canni at a higher rate without it.

The point that is missed is that compared to the other INT based casters we are now farther behind then ever before. Our pets simply cannot stand up to the high end mobs that other classes are able to solo with ease. To say that Mages are the second best nukers in the game really is a falsehood from SoE. Our main line of damage was been fire, our secondary was magic. In zones like PoFire and SolRo Towr we lost are access to our high damage spells. Our best nuke was a Bolt based spell that required clear LoS... Damn near impossible in raid situations. The point is if you compare being a Mage to being any other INT based caster now we are very far behind now. SoE is taking away one of our defining abilities and is replacing it with nothing. It is a nerf, the modrod changes were a fix. But as the forum states it is not recommend to argue opinions so I shall end it here.

Pike Tha Blodd
December 17th, 2003, 04:27 AM
I gotta side with Mordi on this one.

We are given a class and we do the best we can with it, he found a way to do it better, and they are now taking that away. When a class is underpowered they find ways around it, like proc aggro with warriors. They dont gripe quite as loud as other's with underpowered classes because they have found a system that works, and they fulfill their role in a group, or found a way to be wanted in a group. Similar to counting cards, you're not cheating, you're playing the game better. Mordi was playing better, and they are now throwing him out of the casino so to speak.

It was apparently a bug, a very long unchecked bug, someone noticed and decided to 'fix' it not realizing that people were building their class around it. So understandably Mordi is upset, hell i would be too.

I have only this to add though, you gotta find another way to play the class better, or get together with the other mages and come to an agreement on something that will help you guys out, organize it, sign it, and send it on to SOE. Neither will help you right now, and the time you've invested is sadly lost, im sorry bro, good luck with what you guys can do.

Poerdby Mypet
December 17th, 2003, 04:36 AM
you contradict yourself Mordican... you say that the refund of IRE affect a small percentage since we can canni at higher rate without it.. then go on to say that we are now further behind???

I specialize in conjure .. i have spell casting mastery so i hit my specialize checks more often and a mana preservation 4 item... after dieing/getting rez.. when i hit 10% mana i cast rathe's son . it takes me down to ~5% mana.. i hit reclaim and it bumps me up to ~15% mana .. its better without IRE ... i also have quick summoning 3 so i can go almost twice as fast as those who dont

while i agree that as the "master of elements" . it would be cool to have ice nukes added to our arsenal.. i feel mages are powerful enough as is ... while our effectiveness is hampered in certain zones such as fire and sol ro .. all classes have thier areas where they are useless :P .. and must not forget our unresistable damage shield, the highest dmg shield in game that in itself adds quite a bit of dps over its duration

sorry for rambling :) 5am, it makes sense to me atm .. lol

Maguus
December 17th, 2003, 08:59 AM
I must be a horrible mage. I only reclaimed my pet when I was done adventuring for the day. I never used it as a source of mana. That was way too complex and a pain in the tush for me. Perhaps that is why I reached only level 62 before I pretty much called it quits in playign EQ. I playd a mage because it was fun for me, not because of how it compared to other classes.

I saw several mage nerfs come and go when I was playing on a daily basis in a now defunct large guild on Prexus. I remember seeing my usefullness go down when they nerfed Call of the Hero aggro clearance. Then when they nerfed Call of the Hero in multiple zones with Luclin. Each time I became angry and upset. But, you know what, I got over it and a new use was found for my mage.

Then there was modrod duty. I used to sit in the back of every raid and drop modrod after modrod for the other casters to use. Ovr and over and over again. So, then modrods were nerfed. I was angry and upset, my usefulness has been nerfed... etc etc.... Now upon reflection.... SUMMONING MODRODS FOR HOURS WAS BORING!!!!!!! EQ is a game, and games are supposed to be fun, but, sitting on your butt summoning rods for other people to use to cast spells was boring. The nerf changed the way things had to be played, but, people still killed the uber mobs.

So now RE has been nerfed. No big deal to me. I must have been a horrible mage.

Inara
December 17th, 2003, 09:55 AM
The biggest complaint I have been seeing on both my own guild boards and here about the Pet canni fix is that Mages will not be able to Solo as well.

As an enchanter, Gather Mana is NOT mana regen. Yep I can get back all my mana every few hours (It isn't a 60 min recast its 2 hours and 24 minutes). Yep I can cast C5 for 18 mana a tick. I am going to disregard all the other AA's which all INT casters have and the natural mana regen at 65. So, I have a group spell that mages can get by groupping with an enchy that would put your mana regen to the same as mine.

Mages big advantage is not how fast they can canni their pets, its their added DPS (Which with a pet is on par with a Wizard, slightly below a Necro and far above an Enchanter) and their group support. There are other very very useful things you guys can do that no other class can...Like summon stuff. 90% of your summoned items are extreemly handy, to both the playes on the raid and their pets.

I suppose that trying to explain why Mages are still good as a class is pointless. I just never understood why a spell that was always supposed to reclaim part of the mana cost casting a spell wasn't fixed before people started relying on a bug to be able to play their classes.
_______________
Inara
Semepr Questio
EMarr

Mistikat_Prexus
December 17th, 2003, 11:21 AM
http://forum.magecompendium.com/tower/viewtopic.php?t=9922


Oh yeah, and as to the comment about druids being able to charm the lowest mobs imaginable, I wonder what that says about 2 druids soloing the Forest Boss in PoStorms using loroks. /boggle


- Mistikat, 59 Vah Shir Tankerpuss

Mordican
December 17th, 2003, 11:27 AM
Well now that the inital uproar has turned into sensible converstaions there are serious ideas being passed around. The root of the anger is not just the Canni nerf itself, but the fact that it has now brought all of our other diffecinces(sp?) to the forefront. Pet Canni acted as an equalizer that kept many other issues at bay. Unfortunatly SoE has decided to remove our Canni abilities without fixing the rest of our problems.

Self Mana Regen spells. We have a shielding line that provides 4/6 mana/tick regen. However this does not static with community mana regen spells. Druid Pot9 is the big one. It offers the same regen, but overrides our own spell. Druids and many other classes have personal spells that increase mana regen and stack. Mages do not. Many people claim ModRods offset this, but all classes benifit from modrods, not just mages.

AA mana regen. Mages have access to the Mental Clarity line like all casters. Wizzards get their improved familiars for 5AA points. Mages get a water form that is 4mana/tick for 18AA points

Horse/Lizzards. Necros can be in Skelly form and get the benifit of sitting on a horse. Wizzards can have their familar out and set on a horse. Mages CANNOT be in water form and sit on a horse making thie AA useless expect in indoor situations. SolRo Tower and PoWater being the only two PoP zones this applies too.

Pet Balance. Mages are supposed to be the pet class in the game. however past teir 1 planes pets simplely do not have the ability to fight mobs that can kill the pet in less then 5-6 combat rounds. Damage mitigation for pets is horrid. Pet Enrage helped, but when you factor in the time/cost of summoning a new pet you really have no choice but to gate. Mage pets simply cannot provide us with the power SoE says they do.

Pet Maintenance. Mages get many useful abilities here as far as weapons and equipment. In the end it only adds 600HP to pets and gives then a melee type proc. This does nothing to help with damage mitigation and tanking abilities. Mages also lag behind other clases in pet healing abilities as well. Truth is a 65 Beastlord is a better Pet class then a 65 Mage. They can slow, have much more efficent healing and can get in and melee if required.

Uselss Pets. namely the fire pet. This pet has been broken ever since SoE introduced the wizzard concept to it. It dispells, it roots, it has a horrible mana pool and the spellsit uses really are not on par with a lvl60 Wizzard. They gave us a Pet only mana regen spell, but considering that we have no control over the spells used by the pet and its small mana pool, it just doesn't make up. SoE needs to dump this concept and return it to what it once was. The BEST solo pet for 30-49. This pet grew into its role and when it started to shin SoE made it useless.

Extended DPS. For mages to keep their current rates of DPS the only real way to do so is to tweak pets. SoE needs to make them into the uber pets they claim them to be. the reality of it is that Mage pets average 60-80DPS under optimum conditions. The water pets can incrase this with their backstab abilities, but you lose time positioning the pet for this. If a mob cannot be cornered or the tank is unwilling to position mobs then this is negated.

Rain Spells. Mages have access to some very nice fire and magic based rain spells. The problem is the resist checks on rain spells are broken. I can cast Black Steel (63 Magic DD Nuke) on Mobs Like Fennin and SolRo with little worry about resists witht he mobs properly debuffed. literally 90%+ success rate if not higher. Rain spells get resisted ALL the time. 1-2 resists per cast (3 waves total) is considered typical. Rain spells tend to be more mana intensive, but they provide a great way for us to spread out our damage and control our agro to a degree.

Lack of Agro Management. In raid conditions the one thing that truely holds a mage back is spell agro. Wizzards get a concussion line (and clicky pants for that matter) that help control and reduce their agro. Other then the AAs that all casters have we do not have that luxary. During a serious fight pets can be a hazzard thanks to pushing and what not. All a mage can do is nuke and we are restricted in that we cannot go full burn without agro issues. When tanks drop Mages are often the first DPS class to go.

The list goes on and on. Pet Canni gave us a unique trait amoung all other classes. For many mages it acted as an equalizer to so many of our other deficinces. The approach SoE took was to remove this ability and not address any of the issues offset by this ability. We are now getting standard SoE jargon of "look to the future"

Instead of rebalencing the issue to more acceptable levels they removed a staple of mage play since Velious. This does not affect only high end mages... This affects any mage from 49+ SoE really needs to go back and look at the drastic changes mages undertake when we finally do crack lvl51.

The simple fact of the matter is that Mages have never truely lived up to the damage dealers SoE makes us out to be. We are 5th-6th at best on the DPS tree and this change will have a direct impact on that. Mages simply are not an alternative to Wizzards for Burst DPS (DD, short duration ifhts, etc) and the removal of our mana regain will widen the gap even more.

Mordican
December 17th, 2003, 11:31 AM
http://forum.magecompendium.com/tower/viewtopic.php?t=9922


Oh yeah, and as to the comment about druids being able to charm the lowest mobs imaginable, I wonder what that says about 2 druids soloing the Forest Boss in PoStorms using loroks. /boggle


- Mistikat, 59 Vah Shir Tankerpuss

Ryan's logic is slightly off. Please read the whole post where the long term affects of Canni come into play. While a mage is in canni mode that is all he is doing. All other classes get their regen no matter what. Mages had to actively canni and nothing else. He also leaves out spell stacking issues, etc... Raw numbers only present one side of the story here.

Mistikat_Prexus
December 17th, 2003, 11:32 AM
I agree with the above poster. Let's hope they don't strike us with the nerf / 'fix' bat before they figure out a way to equalize us in some other fashion.

Mistikat_Prexus
December 17th, 2003, 11:37 AM
I am agreeing 100% with ya, I play a 65 Magi on Prexus as well as my little tyke 59 warrior. I am one of the countless mages who spent hard earned plat and much time to acquire the proper AA's and foci that gave us the ability to sustain decent DPS in groups and raids via pet canni. Over time, and because it is 'burst regen' and very much an ACTIVE regen, leaving us defenseless and with no discernible DPS to add to the group / raid while doing so, it is NOT the game breaking 'sky-is-falling' hooplah that Brenlo or Rytan are making it out to be. At best, it was a crutch.

- Mistikat

Raxtull
December 17th, 2003, 11:44 AM
My opinion on the matter, if something has existed in the game for, 4 1/2 years now?, then it was obviously intended to work the way it was. Fixing it after such a long time, when the strategy was by no means a secret, is a nerf.

I realize that Sony leaves bugs in the game until they feel like fixing it, hence the reason the Field of Bone pathing bug, where mobs drop through a wall then imediately start beating the piss out of you, has existed for so long. But who cares? It's a newbie zone so it doesn't matter, right? Then why was the chair in Kurn's fixed, isn't that a newbie zone too? Oh that's right, the chair in Kurn's was a bug that benefitted players, whereas the pathing is detrimental so it can be allowed to stay in.

If they really cared about the game they made, then bugs would be fixed as soon as they're discovered. I know that the rotting flesh hunter in FoB still has 7500 hps and hits in the 60s for a level 14-ish mob, my roommate was screwing around the other day and wanted to see if it was fixed yet. Though we both did a /feedback and /bug the day the mob was put in about how bugged it was.

As a former mage, I realized the benefits of Pet Canni, but I only ever used it to get to full mana after a rez. My pet was worth a lot more to me fully equipped, and I wasn't interested in using canni on a normal basis.

But oh well, I'm through with EQ. Only thing that was keeping me there for the last year or so was my friends and the lack of anything that was even as good, let alone better. Though I had already vowed that I wouldn't touch another SOE product, even before SWG.

Kaylen
December 17th, 2003, 11:46 AM
I know that the rotting flesh hunter in FoB still has 7500 hps and hits in the 60s for a level 14-ish mob, my roommate was screwing around the other day and wanted to see if it was fixed yet. Though we both did a /feedback and /bug the day the mob was put in about how bugged it was.

This is not a bug. It has been stated several times to be working as intended.

darkpaw
December 17th, 2003, 12:13 PM
Personally I feel really bad for the mages. As has been said many of them put a lot of effort into getting the skills and items that make this work. Yah they'll be returning some of the AA's, but that does nothing to balance them out. Doing pet canni required the mage to do nothing else at all and as a shaman I could still easily beat a mage to full mana after a res say so I didn't consider it to be over powerful especially with how much work they need to put into it.

I do hope that something gets done to even things out, but I doubt it. Still waiting to see some cleric utility that was promised when druids got mini cheals (no, summoned hammer <> utility)

Raxtull
December 17th, 2003, 12:21 PM
Well, then I guess SOE is out to seriously screw newb Iksar, by having an aggro mob that far out of whack in the favored newb hunting grounds, who is for a quest that nets a whopping Burning Affliction I neck piece. My first encounter with it was with a level 18 super-twink monk I was screwing around with as I was bored one day. Dark blue mob, so I should have been able to punk it, since I could easily take reds. It aggro'd on me while I was already in a fight, so I had to FD as it was ripping me apart.

I had called my roommate over because I had never seen this mob before and wanted to know if he had, as we both have been long-time Iksar. He logged in his 51 wizard after I FD'd and came in to kill it. 5 Ice Comets later, one of them a crit, and it was still standing, but at 0% hps, which he had to finish off with his clicky gloves.

If this mob is "working as intended" then it truly shows SOE's stupidity, and I'm more than glad I got the hell away from the game.

Kaylen
December 17th, 2003, 12:54 PM
Quoted from a SOE representative, "Undercons happen."

If you've never noticed them before.. you haven't been around much. Granted, this mob is severely underconned, but that's still what it is. By the time you get to the area of the pit where he is, you should be in Kurn's. I killed him with a 25 bard.. he's not that hard, he just has a massive chunk of hit points many people would be hard pressed to endure.

You don't have to fight it. Run to the zone. Back in the days prior to widespread twinking, people often practiced this art of "running for their lives," even against normal things they should have been able to take.

Raven00x
December 17th, 2003, 12:58 PM
i still practise the fine art of "running like hell" :oops:

damn 10 foot tall firebreathing brownies from hell....

Mordican
December 17th, 2003, 01:04 PM
Hence the birth of "INCOMING TRAIN TO ZONE!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!"

:)

Raven00x
December 17th, 2003, 01:38 PM
and "ranger down...again"

Satarus
December 17th, 2003, 01:43 PM
SoE really needs to start working and fixing bugs in the game. I'm not talking about the ones like pathing exploits and such, i am talking about the detremental ones like pathing bugs where mobs fall out of the zone and can still hit you. Also jamfest was broken for a year, and they are just now fixing it because we are getting hit hard with the nerf stick.

My problem with them nerfing pet canni is it has been apart of the game since beta. The level 49 focus earth pet ALWAYS gave more mana than it took to cast. With velious, monster summoning 2 gave even better mana regen. Now 2 expansions after PoP, SoE is just deciding that maybe rathe's son gives a little too much mana regen.

Come on this is exactly the kinda bullcrap like them nerfing the level 32 bard song because they thought it was unbalencing. Both cases are situational where you get some good mana regen, but in both cases, the respective classes can do nothing other than the mana regen. With the 32 bard song, it was only worth while if the bard did nothing but twist wind of marr and the 32 bard song for superior mana regen. This wasn't like the unlimited mana that they were getting from the T-rods. Its not like pet canni suddenly makes the mages any better than a wizzie who is already regen mana faster than the poor mage because he can't elemental form on a horse.

Bottom line, is 200 mana a tic situational a little unbalence? Yes it is a little. Should pet canni in general be removed from the game? No. It should be nerfed a little but not removed from the game because it has been there for 4 1/2 years. Next thing you know, they will nerf the stacking abilities of mage/druid damage shields and bard damage shields because somehow having 150 dmg shield is unbalencing.

Kat
December 17th, 2003, 01:44 PM
i still practise the fine art of "running like hell" :oops:

damn 10 foot tall firebreathing brownies from hell....

All there was near your corpse was a pixie. Thats P I X I E.
:P

But that Unicorn. . . /shudder. . .

I have perfected the art of "running like a girl" I can generally run faster that an unaccelerated avatar.
When that doesnt work, I try my hand at "crying like a little girl lost in the department store".

Mordican
December 17th, 2003, 04:15 PM
I think the million dollar question is this:

Why are mages SO broken that we require 10x the mana regen of other classes to maintain effectivness? Does that not strike anyone else as odd? If canni-pet is so absolutely un-balancing, than how come even WITH it we still arent out-damaging other dps classes?

(note taken from the mage boards, not from me)

Nosferatu
December 18th, 2003, 01:22 AM
Mordican, I just had to say that your long post on page two was a well written piece of literature. You intelligently stated your concerns and why you consider them something to look at.

It's not often you run into nicely put together posts like that, and I like to give credit where credit is due. It was enjoyable to read.

Mutton
December 18th, 2003, 04:05 AM
As a bard, let me just say owie. Yeah, I got hit by the nerf stick too but ours were made out of foam compared to that Electricfied spike they handed Quarm to whack you with.

--edit--

Just wanted to add that atleast the red cross gives you a cookie went you donate that much blood.

Gnomish
December 18th, 2003, 05:10 AM
dang, that sucks... as a player of a shammay, i gotta say (plain ol') Cannibalize isn't that great... i get lom when i buff for plat, I tell the noobs i am lom and to hold on a sec, start doing canni (it dropps me about 5% per cast) and the newbies are all like OMG WHAT IS HAPPENING!! then they wander away, because it takes FOREVER for me to get my mana back up...

I feel for you ^_^

Naelaen
December 18th, 2003, 06:37 AM
Ok, I haven't read a lot of this thread, so if any points have already been raised I apologise.

First of all, I see no problem in this, the whole point of reclaim energy is that you get some of your mana back not all and a little bit more. It's a blatant bug if you get more mana back that when you started.

Secondly Mages do not rely on mana as much as the other 3 pure casting classes, mainly because their main responsibility is their pet during combat. Whilst they need to heal the pet and can deliver a nice punch with their DDs (even better with summoned items) if the tank and healer are doing their jobs you have more of an opportunity to sit down and meditate. Put simply, when a mage is out of mana it's not that much of a deal, the pet still goes on. If a wizard is out, then they're useless, same with an enchanter and whilst a necro would still have his pet, you can say goodbye to DoTs and twitching.

Finally, it's a small point but mages can summon mod rods, it does the same sort of thing as cannibalize except in one big chunk. However I do concede that the Shaman and Necro Cannibalize spells are better (especially when you can tap the life back hehe)

Mordican
December 18th, 2003, 01:04 PM
Secondly Mages do not rely on mana as much as the other 3 pure casting classes, mainly because their main responsibility is their pet during combat. Whilst they need to heal the pet and can deliver a nice punch with their DDs (even better with summoned items) if the tank and healer are doing their jobs you have more of an opportunity to sit down and meditate. Put simply, when a mage is out of mana it's not that much of a deal, the pet still goes on. If a wizard is out, then they're useless, same with an enchanter and whilst a necro would still have his pet, you can say goodbye to DoTs and twitching.

First off ModRods can be considered community mana. They cost HP to Mana Conversion as well as having an inital cost to the mage. ModRods are more affective for other classes then they are for mages. Mages also have no heal type spells, only low HP regen.

Mage pet DPS is 60-80DPS under optimum conditions. Aginst high end bosses their DPS drops considerably due to higher ACs and Mitigation by boss mobs. Mage pets are discouraged aginst mobs that cannot be done AoW style due to pushing. Mage pets do not get the benifit of group spells and AE spells including healing. With so many mobs having AE these days pets die quick. Pets die to rampage/enrage mobs in no time flat. Add Pet DPS to the mage's spell DPS and we are still behind wizzards. When a pet dies it takes a good minute to get them geared and buffed in which time the mage is generating Zero DPS. The majority of Mage DPS is in fact DD Spell damage, especially at the higher levels. Mages have over poor combat support for their pets. At Best you get a 1200HP that can be chained every 7.25 seconds. Fight mobs that can rampage/enrage for that amount of damage in 1 combat round puts you at a severe disadvantage. Beatlords are much more efficent pet classes then we are.

The problem is that SoE has always stated that our pets are the best pets in the game... Well they are right, problem is that they are BARELY better then other pets. Add in the spells/abilities of other pet classes and we lose that advantage.

copasnece
December 19th, 2003, 01:41 PM
ok first off i'm extremely tired, so if whatever i say sounds dumb, i apologize right now :)

Anyway, let me make sure i understand what happened before i say anything else. Before the nerf, mages were able to summon a pet, then reclaim energy for a serious amount of mana, more mana then it cost to cast the pet, correct? To me that doesn't seem right. I dont know a whole lot about how mages work, mage and druid are the only classes i never played. But it sounds like you were able to cast pet, reclaim, cast pet, ect. to get more mana. If thats how it was, then no offense, it should be nerfed.

Personally i DO think, that mages deserve something better then what they have, but regaining mana that easily isn't it. I think your pets should be stronger/have better abilities, then they have right now. As someone said, your pets should be your DPS, not your nukes. But because of the way the class is designed right now, most mages (at least the ones i know) use their nukes as their main DPS.

Anyway all i really wanted to say, was instead of getting upset about the nerf, maybe make some suggestions to the devs about getting some better options for your pets and/or mana regen. Of course, i doubt they will really listen but you never know :)

Mordican
December 19th, 2003, 02:54 PM
Believe me we have. The nature of the nerf is also a major issue. We were literally blind sided by this. 2 days before it went live, no time to interact with the Devs, etc... SoE has even mentioned Mage Pet Canni in the past as a reason for our lack of some abilities...

The one thing that people seem to miss the most, and that SoE continues to claim is that Pet Canni has always been an active form of mana regen, not passive. For that 2 minutes a mage is Canniing there are genreating Zero DPS. To put it into perspective... Soloing a mob in PoFire general takes a few minutes... 3-5 depening on mob resists. When I am fighting I am generating my FT15, no medding(I lack a 100k horse) FT3 from MC and my self 6/tick. Inate Medding factored in I'm pulling around 30/tick. Compare this to a Necro that is generated close to 80/tick. I expend roughly 50% of my mana pool to zolo 1 ZI mob (Necros comparitively equiped are about the same, but are soloing a red con mob instead of a blue con mob) in a 5 minute fight that is 30 ticks of regen. A Necro regens 2400 pts of mana. I generate 900pts of mana. Necro meds for two minutes for another 960 bringing their 7 minute regen to 3360mana. Canni for two minutes at 170/tick for a mage = 2040 mana. Add in my 900 for fighting and I'm now at 2940mana. So over a 7 minute period a necro regens 3360mana compared to my 2960mana WITH canni. Add in the fact that the necro is capable of soloing a mob that yields 13% EXP solo to one that yields 5% EXP solo.

When you break Canni down to 60 minutes... Your really only getting a 20/tick gain in mana. With the way SoE stated it, they presented us as being able to get 170/tick all the time and only compared it on paper, not in practice.

Merdakai
December 21st, 2003, 07:01 AM
ok time for my rarity of showing up on this board....

Mord, you're a smart guy and all and you state your case very well. I was going to first respond with how you were wrong on the necro getting 100mana/tick on a horse, but then in the final post so far I see you corrected yourself to ~80/tick. I also won't say some of the other things I wanted to say since they are in part flammatory and completely unneccesary.

But along the lines of mama regen on horses while soloing mobs. I have yet to see anyone, let alone a necro, solo while riding a horse/drogmor so the mana regen will be slightly lower than your projeted 3360 mana in a 7 minute time ( also most necros kill a mob withing 2-3 minutes and med for slighly less than that to get enough mana to safely pull again ).

I am far from an uber nec. I pride myself on the total crap of gear I wear since I am proof that necromancers do not need to rely on high end gear as much as any other class out there. I have FT1 thanks to the solstice earring, I am even too lazy to buy the cheapest horse/drogmor. I am in a 'family guild' that is advancing in NToV , even though we are fully capable of entering ST and Ssra. I am lvl 65 witha near full spellbook, I lack LDoN ( see... I AM lazy lol ) so I don't have Horror or the other spells from that expansion yet. I have no planar flags, not a single one. ANd I only have 30 AA's. So , like said before, I am far from an uber nec, but I still know more than most of the necros I have met though the ones on my friends list are ones who have more experience and knowledge than me and I am still learning. Necros have been nerfed since the first patch, and with almost every new patch we are spanked even more. We adapt, we survive, we thrive. You, as a mage getting 'nerfed' should strive to do the same.

and now this part goes to Naelaen.
You mentioned that if a necro goes oom we need to say goodbye to our dots and twitching..... ok I'll leave twitching alone for the moment. As stated above I am not an uber nec, but in xp groups, unless I nuke for the hell of it, I rarely go below 70m in any given fight and am back near 100m by next pull and I am still pulling ~80-120 dps not including my pet. Now on the subject of twitching... I shall say nothing of it here, but I invite you to www.eqclasses.com and use the search function to look up 'twitch' and then see how you view it. And yes.. I am a necro who twitches WHEN NECESSARY, never during a pull for an xp group... only during/after raid/group buffing or after a whipe. Never twitched a wizard... mage... shaman... but have twitched a chanter or two while I was bored and of course I twitch clerics.. but only in above situations.

Kai aus

EDIT _ forgot to add thsi part...

Sicarius Al'Thule
65 Arch Lich
Terris Thule

Naelaen
December 21st, 2003, 12:56 PM
All I was trying to say Merdakai is that mana is of less importance to a mage than to the other pure casters. This of course is relative since mages still need a heck of a load of mana to maintain their pet and to deal damage with nukes, but the scenario given was the pure casters being out of mana, and their relative usefulnesses in that scenario.

I don't know why mages are still maintaining that they shouldn't have had pet canni taken away from them. I mean it doesn't matter how much mana you gained from reclaim energy, or in what way, in the end it's called reclaim energy, not gain energy. As such pet canni was obviously abusing a bug with improved reclaim energy.

It seems to me that the real problem is the mage pets usefulness in the endgame. If high mages are using their pets simply to gain mana, then that is a sign that something is drastically wrong. They should be summoning their pets for DPS alongside nukes, as opposed to summoning them to help them continue nuking. I hope this is what the SOE dev team are working towards by fixing improved reclaim energy now and then increasing the value of the magician pet at a later time.

Mordican
December 22nd, 2003, 12:05 AM
Merd I had VoQ in the first example stacked with Skeely form which of course don't stack, The second example I was going by self mana regen only since that was the better of the two.

As far as soloing on a horse/drogmar when you get the expensive one many people do it. There is acceleration issues but when a mob is snared its less of a problem.

I also know my times were off, but I wanted to give a time frame for comparision. I didn't actually run the hard numbers, was rough at best. SoE did up our personal mana regen by 2/tick but there are still the stacking issues. Take on the shielding line though and you could argue that compensates.

Some time equiped necros were also able to canniw ith the focus, however the cost of the pets was considerably higher.

Merdakai
December 22nd, 2003, 10:08 PM
necro canni'ing their pets for mana gain would burn a small hole in our pockets lol at 10-12pp a pet we non-uber'd and rather poor necs (cough like me cough) wouldn't consider doing something like that, but I guess that's why you said time equipped. *shrugs*

here's a small mystery buster for everyone. If you wanna know why necros have such high self only mana regen, check out the cost of our spells. I'll give a small example of a solo run at an HoH guard.

I have roughly 3400 mana altogether, far from uber. also lets jsut say I had a really good run and had no resists to my snare. the fight would go roughly like this, and keep in mind that while aggro kiting we necs don't usually get a lot of med time during a fight(which would be why I guess with a much faster horse we woulds tart to aggro kite like that to get sitting mana regen while aggro kiting). We also won't take into account any AA's or focus items or specilization checks. The fight would go something like this for me

Embracing Darkness(snare) 200mana
Funeral Pyre 450mana
Blood of Thule 500mana
Saryrn's Kiss 550mana
Dark Plague 425mana

2125 mana to lay down that much pain, plus I'd have to reapply BoT and/or FP at least once if I wanted to mob to die faster.
Now that's a big chuck of mana, but of course after my Mana pres IV item ( I suck and have no Affliction Efficiency IV item ) and specialization checks I use a bit less mana than that, but not too much less.

I know mages have soem high costing spells, though very few of their nukes have a higher mana cost than any necro spell I mentioned save darkness. The mage pets are above and beyond better than necro pets.

Anyways...I can't think of anything else to add or say. Though if you don't know already, Mord, but a few other necros have seen these posts and have started to talk about you on our site. I had nothing to do with this, since well almost anyone who plays EQ and visits message boards know of Woody and his great comic =)

here's the link directly to the topic I talked about
http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23618

Mordican
December 22nd, 2003, 11:01 PM
Merd... I went back and actually posted more then my initial rant so lets see how it goes from there. My first post was done when I had the anger and frustration. My second, longer post was the more potent one and thats the one that should have been sent over. It now has so we shall see where the thread goes from there.