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View Full Version : I said... it tastes GREAT! (12/26)



Woody
December 26th, 2003, 01:38 AM
In looking for a joke for today's comic, I decided to go to the bard boards to see what they had to say about the recent nerf to some of their abilities.

Well, I found a lot of unrest and discourse... but beyond that, I found an all out war between monks and bards. It seems to be centering on the ability to pull. And I can see a bit of both sides.

Now, I'd link a post or two, but the fact is, every post I read had atleast SOMETHING that showed some negativity between the two classes.

The textual battle reminded me of the old Bud Light commercials, and I knew I had my joke.

**shrugs and grins**

Binaman
December 26th, 2003, 01:43 AM
Being once a Bard and Monk I gotta say that was a great laugh

Requiem_Aristade
December 26th, 2003, 01:43 AM
Well I wouldnt know anything about the bard/monk issues...or the whole melee revamp...considering none of my melee classes ever make it past 45... I'd prefer sit in the background and wiggle my fingers... although my Shammy does like to smack a few things around when soloing..SO when do us Shammys get some kewl new melee abilities???

Reymi_VZ
December 26th, 2003, 02:08 AM
The textual battle reminded me of the old Bud Light commercials, and I knew I had my joke.

Thankyou for explaining what the copy was - I had no idea... I was thinking American chocolate bar or something.

Regarding bards vs monks. Bards were always 100% better :P Cause I am biased! I was a bard for 2 years.


PS. What you doing working on Chrissy Day!!!!!!

Gnomish
December 26th, 2003, 02:18 AM
heh.... good one woody.. i chuckeled out loud when i saw the "tastes great; less filling" lines..

Naelaen
December 26th, 2003, 03:43 AM
Monks don't die when the bish resists (they feign it, no really :D)

Trolalen
December 26th, 2003, 06:35 AM
Errrr.........not trying to be a stick in the mud, but wasn't that from the Miller Lite commercials. I seem to remember John Madden and a bunch of other football players shouting back and forth at each other Tastes Great...........Less Filling

Saethori
December 26th, 2003, 06:51 AM
I have no clue where it's really from... all I know is that I heard it pass around a lot... I guess it's famous in that regard.

But, yeah... I saw a mile away that giving Monks Lull and simultaneously nerfing Bard Lull would result in commotion. As happens whenever any class gains or loses something, but it's obviously much more heated when one class gains something the other class just lost.

Probably comparable in certain regards for all of the Wizard's port spells suddenly being taken away and given to the Necromancer. Instant commotion, just add whiner.

DarkWyndre
December 26th, 2003, 07:38 AM
Hehe,

Thanks Woody, that was great. As you so aptly pointed out to me on the serverwide the other day, I'm class blind; however, THAT was funny, and you're absolutely right.

I'm a fairly regular poster over at MB, and every bard that's stopped in to whine has gotten some vartion of the following comment from me...

"Well, any good monk will tell you that we don't need the new ability, we've been considered the best pullers for years without it. Maybe if you actually learned to pull, and then learned to use your abilities to make that better, you wouldn't be here whining about your lack of skills, would ya?"

Threadkilla :)

I'm rambling

Great Comic and all that.

KiTA
December 26th, 2003, 07:48 AM
Thankyou for explaining what the copy was - I had no idea... I was thinking American chocolate bar or something.

Mmm.. Chocobeer. I think you're onto something there. :D

Kinarie
December 26th, 2003, 07:54 AM
No, it was Bud Light =) Great comic.

Xaurothan
December 26th, 2003, 10:33 AM
trying to remember that far back, but i think it was miller lite

Billybobtheranger
December 26th, 2003, 11:32 AM
Pally's pull better :-p

Ciarin
December 26th, 2003, 11:33 AM
It's Miller Lite (http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-001820.php).

GG NO RE

Mutton
December 26th, 2003, 08:24 PM
Being that I play a bard and my Boss plays a monk I must say you struck a nerve there.

Shiach_gaidin
December 27th, 2003, 03:45 AM
LOL, gotta love referances to old beer comercials, but I never wanna see a WASSSSUP! comic ever ever ever

Elmora
December 27th, 2003, 04:57 AM
Ciarin wins... fatality

Saethori
December 27th, 2003, 07:14 AM
Fatality?

*looks left*

*looks right*

*uses Feign Death*

Rade
December 27th, 2003, 07:49 AM
this comic has made me laugh, since obviously we know only bards can pull some encounter succesfully bards are by far the best pullers

devnull
December 27th, 2003, 10:56 AM
Less Filling!.......

Woody
December 27th, 2003, 12:40 PM
I will say this with all honesty, and hope it doesn't spark any negativity/anamosity (because if it does, I'll delete it and PM you asking you not to do it again). And, this is only what I've seen in LDoN groups; so... it might be different elsewhere. I honestly don't know.

I've grouped with monks pulling in LDoN and it hasn't been very successful. It's pretty slow, feign failed when it was needed most. Mobs walked away at the same time making it hard to split them.

Bards do a good job. But, I have noticed that only GOOD bards pull successfully in LDoN. Bad bard = worse than the monk pulling. Atleast when the monks made a bad pull they said "whoops" and died on the spot, saving the group. Not bards. They come rushing back to the group bringing everything, convinced they can mez the ones we're not attacking. With a GOOD bard, that works. With a bad bard... we lose the adventure.

So, in my experience in LDoN so far, Paladins are the best pullers. It's been a little slower since they changed the timing on pacify. But, over all, Paladins have rarely trained the group. That's most likely because they KNOW they can't mez stuff so they work hard not to bring more than one or two mobs.

Clerics pacifying, and warriors pulling... has been pretty successful, but honestly monks were more speedy than THAT process.

Clerics pacifying and pulling... scares the crap out of me. **grins**

Enchanters soothing and pulling... has not worked at all. Now, maybe it's just the enchanters I was grouped with, but each and everyone of them failed to pull successfully, gained a ton of aggro, and died right in the middle of the group, followed quickly by the healer, any other caster(s), any ranger, any other melee, then, atlast, the warriors.

Kweil
December 27th, 2003, 01:06 PM
GOOD bards pull successfully in LDoN. Bad bard = worse than the monk pulling.
As a bard I have to completely agree. I have a 100% success rate on LDoN (granted only 30 adventures so far) but everyone seems to be happy with my pulling. Today was my worst day pulling but we still won with 20 minutes left.

Bad bards are the worst thing in the world, good bards are one of the bests.

Zinj
December 27th, 2003, 06:15 PM
But that's okay.

I wasn't particularly crazy about having the Lull business added to monk's toys.

Monks need Feign Death to do two things: Kill aggro completely, and kill aggro on all but a selected mob. Really good monks can gain aggro on several mobs at once, then bring them strung out far enough for the main tank to pick off the closest while the monk puts the rest on standby. Of course this means said monk isn't adding ANY damage to the mobs, which kind of makes the ability to do damage superfluous. :-(

And I've always been opposed to nerfing ANY classes abilities; unless it's obviously a game breaker to even the dumbest player.

Zinj, Fat Grumpy Monk of Norrath
55th Rung on the Ladder of Life, Vazaelle

Tear
December 27th, 2003, 06:29 PM
My main was a monk in the upper ends of the game from the lower ends ive experianced alot. I Must say..that I have seen good bard pullers maybe 4 or 5 in all my time that knew what they were doing and didnt oopsy's too often.

But more often then not you dont get very many good bards that know what they are doing. I think the main reason for this is because when a group thinks..we need a puller they think Monk,Ranger,warrior,etc. Bards usually dont come to mind because everyone in the group wants the bard to be with the group. So bards dont get practice in pulling.

Also Woody pointed it up before..If a bard does make an oopsy he doesnt have that many options either pull back to the group which is usually a bad thing or if they know what to do..eat death.

Monks or Sk at the worst moments can fd if they make an oopsy..or run around a bit until it works :P plus monks practice pulling all their game lives. So the chances you get a good puller are better but you still have a chance of getting the odd bad one.

High end mobs too are pretty much monk only..bards dont have much luck with that..

in my opinion though Monks tend to be faster,safer pullers overall.

Naelaen
December 28th, 2003, 06:50 AM
Whilst I don't mind bards pulling, I feel much better when the paladin's doing it, since they know who they're going to pull, and if something bad does go wrong, the paladin can take the punishment, and maybe do a Lay Hands if things get too bad.

I've not grouped with a monk in LDoN yet, which is strange.

Elmora
December 28th, 2003, 06:50 AM
My own experience in pulling was that it all depends on the skill as a puller. I have pulled as a Paladin, I have also (once) pulled as an Enchanter. And I did well with both characters. You just have to know how to use the tools that have been given to you.

Kweil
December 28th, 2003, 08:34 AM
Monks need Feign Death to do two things: Kill aggro completely, and kill aggro on all but a selected mob.
It would need a high failure rate to keep from being too powerful. Since FD keeps the mobs from re-argoing when successful to combine it with a complete agro kill would be insane.
Every pulling skill needs a weakness. Take the bard's Fading Memories as an example: Wipes the bards off of all hate lists and turns them invisible. Would seem to do what you want but: A good portion of mobs at that level do see invis so if you are too close they'll instantly reagro and it costs 900 mana to use.

I have to agree with one bard on EQDiva: Best puller is actually bard and monk working in tandem.

Naelaen
December 28th, 2003, 09:54 AM
I think what he meant was that is currently the case, not what it should be.

Death666
December 28th, 2003, 11:36 AM
Heh, each class has its own territory.

There are some encounters which a bard is more equiped to pull, there are some when you need FD (pre-change Vindi pulls for example) and monks win there. Bard pulling was overpowered for a while, the nerf (Which honestly was not that severe, any decent bard can still pull just as effectively in almost all situations they could before.) was valid. The monk improvement was a good change, and a needed one. They, like the other pure melee classes, had been losing ground for a long time, though being that they were rather powerful at one point, the power loss never really was an issue until PoP (The worst expansion to date as far as the power curve and balance are concerned.), and they needed this change.

The only class who has really fallen behind as far as pulling is concerned is the Shadowknight. (Well, necros too, but they've never really been pullers save for a few situations, and they don't need to be, it isn't part of their role and never has been.) And even so, Shadowknights are still the best pullers for a few situations. (Though they are much rarer than those for which a bard or monk are best.)

Shadowknights, Necromancers, and Druids are the classes hurting the most currently.

Druids are doing well though, they wont be hurting for long.

Enchanters are on their way to being grouped here, having the best mana regeneration and haste buffs is keeping them from being unwanted though.

Necromancers haven't changed much in a while, they lack group and raid utility, but they still solo effectively.

Shadowknights used to be balanced relative to Paladins for the most part, but Paladins have a gained a lot where Shadowknights have not. The addition of lull pulling as a viable tactic and the recent pure melee enhancements have also caused Shadowknights to fall behind.


As far as LDoN goes, people are far too concerned with single pulls. In most dungeons there are few pulls that will get more than 2-4 total, and the mobs all have low hp and max damage, it should be no problem to split tank or mez/root adds. The average dungeon will go quite a bit faster if you're not concerned with single pulls only.

Xaurothan
December 28th, 2003, 03:25 PM
Necromancers haven't changed much in a while, they lack group and raid utility, but they still solo effectively.


Well now there is one point that I would love to disagree on. heck maybe I'm biased just a bit. But lacking group and raid utility is a bit far off I would say. Who else has the ability to DoT as well as the Necro? I can't count the number of tines that the necro pet was able to OT that dang add long enough to take thie first mob down. And lastly who else can FD and rez the cleric when the group/ raid just got wiped by that dang train or pull gone bad? Maybe you haven't had the right necro with you at times. I will grant that some necros work better in groups than others, but then again you could say the same about other classes as well.

Kivuli
December 28th, 2003, 10:34 PM
Oh boy, you've never seen Sharkann or Xhansyr pull, Woody. :D I love grouping with those guys. They'll pull a train of mobs and leave them all lined up nice and mezzed while the group deals with them one at a time.

I suppose it goes back to your view on bards, come to think of it. If they're good, they're outstanding. But if they're bad, they wipe the group.

rillaith
December 29th, 2003, 02:10 AM
Clerics pacifying and pulling... scares the crap out of me. **grins**
Double the fun! :mrgreen:

In my experience the best 65 ldon adventures have been with a bard pulling a constant steady stream, or with a competent chanter and anyone who knows the way pulling - although I was treated to an xp group with 4 of our server's top guild.... cleric and pally both had 150hp group lifetap proc augments on their time weapons, plus the pally using his ~700hp group heal every few minutes meant the cleric was meleeing along with the rest of us (and they are demon dps with those hammers - he only had to cast a heal once) and we finished in under 25 minutes!

I also play a 57 cleric - the last few levels have been mostly LDoN ... anyone competent enough at pulling is ok, but give me a slower or backup healer and a C3, and i'll chain pull 'til the cows come home faster and smoother than they will! Cleric pulling GOOOOD :D

Coffee
December 29th, 2003, 08:26 AM
Haven't played in some time, but as a former bard I can appreciate this one. And I remember all too well how the bard boards can be.
Great jarb on the comic too.

Rangor
December 29th, 2003, 08:34 AM
The last LDoN mission I was on, the enchanter pulled 5 mobs. My underwear changed colour and I was about to tell the group to run to the zoneline. I noticed, however, that the enchanter's HP wasn't going down much, then realised that, even though he'd accidently agro'd these mobs, he dealt with them quite easily, and we were fighting one mob while the other four slept.
I was very impressed, which doesn't happen often in EQ. Never seen crowd control like it in a dungeon.

Another time I was impressed in an LDoN mission was when we had almost run out of time on an Assasination, and we had one last room to clear. The paladin stepped up, pacified all the mobs in the room, fired an arrow at the boss mob, who walked through the crowd (sometimes getting REAL close to some pacified mobs), and up to us. We killed the boss, won, then cleared the room after. That was the only other time I can recall being impressed in EQ for a while.

synger
December 30th, 2003, 11:55 AM
Actually, I find a bard/monk combo ideal for pulling. I have a hotkey that targets the monk, assists him, and starts my lull song. I don't have to see the target, and the song is manaless and fairly long range. He just has to tell me to lull and I do. THen I hit another key that says "%T lulled" to let him (and the group) know it was successful.

That way he pulls, I don't get agro, he can feign agro off onto our tank, the tank is the only one to get beat up, and the cleric is happy because her healing is efficient. And everyone knows that if the cleric ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy! :lol:

I can lull/pull myself, too. But I don't have as easy a time of shedding agro (not for a couple levels anyway). I've also used this tactic when we have no monk, and the warrior/sk/paladin is pulling and tanking. Just takes communication between bard and puller. Communication and skill are the two things that make good groups.

And in truth, any bard who is trying to break a five-spawn LDON room by lulling all five and then pulling one.... sorry, but they DO need to rethink that strategy. It's a waste of time, and now it won't work. Seldom in normal difficulty dungeons do we have to lull more than three. And 18 seconds is enough to do that if you know what you're doing.

(And, if all else fails, or you're in a hard dungeon where lull is more likely to be resisted, you go to plan B, which usually involves mez/charm or offtanking.)

Giocosa, Jharin of 51 songs
Firiona Vie

Kimanda, Bard of 55 songs
Quellious