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on the subject of death...

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  • on the subject of death...

    I was just wondering, what is the proper penielty for death in an MMO, i've seen two versions of death peniltys...

    EQ- you die you lose X exp, you need to corpse run or summon... you have an option of hunting down a cleric for a rez that will cut your stats for a few minutes but give you back a majority of experiance lost...(EQ1 you can loss a lvl if your not carful)

    WoW- apon death you recive a 10% wear and tear on all your gear that has duriblity, 25% if you choose to rez via spirit healer which also sends you off with a 75% stat penilty for X time depending on your lvl, you also have an option of rezing which eleminates the ghost mode run which depening where you've died can save time... you never come back with full health and mana so you get about 30 seconds of down time regardless... also if you keep dieing a timer will pop up and you'll have to wait before you can rez yourself agian... no exp is ever lost in death

    so basically WoW makes you pay for death literally, and EQ makes death inconvenant... now i'll just have you know that i do play wow and i don't think it is a bad game, but i feel the WoW death system encourages zerging in some areas, like AQ the first boss is close enough that a weaker inexperiance guild could manage to take it down with a few zerg waves as long as they managed to keep the boss in combate, also people that know very little about thier class can get to a high lvl fast, which means they are lvl 60 and still trying to figure out thier place in the group(i know i was one of them) but on the plus side if someone screws up they don't drag the rest of the group down too much so the group is less likely to get mad. After i die in WoW i don't feel like it is a big deal, though i do get irrateded with ghost mode. When i play EQ and die i feel like it is a bigger slap on the wrists, i mean death in EQ is bad for your health or at lest exp bar and in EQ people may get upset if someone dies consistently or wipes the group with a bad pull, but hey you don't get to max lvl without knowing what you're doing, unless someone power leveled you in which case... well let's not go there =P

    in my opinion WoW has a freindlier death system that i feel might be too weak and EQ has a reasonible system that can test the patiance of a group.

    So which system is better? I guess with both games rasing the lvl cap i'm courious on the subject of death.
    I have no blood, I bleed bright red potentially deadly chemicals...

  • #2
    ask this question of ten people, you'll get eleven answers (there's always one in the crowd who has to ask the voices). I think the harshest of any game I have played is Eve where, unless you insure the hell out of your ships and keep clones up to date, you could concievably lose EVERYTHING. Pays to insure The most lenient I have seen is City of Heroes, wherein you get XP debt and that's it. EQ2 is sort of a hybrid between CoH and WoW with XP debt, equipment wear, and being low-stat groggy for a while. All of them have their own spin on things, but I think the way EQ2 and WoW do it is probably the most balanced- you take a slap for dying, but it's not so harsh that it stops being fun.

    Yes, fun, the whole reason why people are supposed to be playing these games in the first place.

    I think what happens is that some people forget that games are meant to be entertaining and fun and make bloody careers out of their gaming. Those people worry me at many levels (especially psychological), but they are generally going to be the most vocal on the subject of in-game death, and are not representative of the majority of players. So, while most players are having fun (yes, with the occassional grumble as we do a corpse run or scoot our pod back to station), some people just love harsh death penalties in game. I will grant you, some love the challenge, so this is not an indictment of those who love them some corpse runs, but most people seem to prefer the more lax penalties.


    • #3
      they don't compare.

      really, they don't. you can't take one aspect of any game and compare it to a single aspect of another game accurately since the entirety of the gameplay within the game is effected by each part of the parts.

      in other words, you could compare WoW with "X" change in death penalty to WoW with "Y" change in death penalty if you had the opertunity to play them both, but you could not compare WoW's Death panalty to EQs death penalty because the games entire framework to support that panalty is completely diffrent.
      When all else fails, poke 'em in the eye with a good sharp stick.


      • #4
        What I think has already been said, but to address your AQ boss scenario. While it seems feasible, it isn't. The respawn on the trash around the prophet is fairly quick in that you get about one chance to try before it is better to wait out the repop. If you resort to attempted zerging, you will more likely than not end up with a long night and a hefty repair bill and still not get past it.
        What I do in my spare time.
        "When the souls of the oppressed fight in the very air that rages, who can stand?" - William Blake


        • #5
          There needs to be a happy medium somewhere between the 12 hour corpse run in EQ to what is availible in WoW. Personnaly i like the EQ "fear" factor that if you stick your nose in someplace you shouldnt be, you will need some help getting your stuff back (but 12 hours is excessive).


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mastik
            There needs to be a happy medium somewhere between the 12 hour corpse run in EQ to what is availible in WoW. Personnaly i like the EQ "fear" factor that if you stick your nose in someplace you shouldnt be, you will need some help getting your stuff back (but 12 hours is excessive).
            happy day for you... they DID fix it awhile back... now if you die in no man's land you can do one of two things... wait a few days for it to pop in everrest or go to the guild lobby spend some plat on a soul stone and have it summoned, then maybe hunt down a cleric to rez it... so no more 12 hours unless your broke and can't get a loan. Still EQ kinda wacks you on the nose for snooping where you shouldn't be.
            I have no blood, I bleed bright red potentially deadly chemicals...


            • #7
              The biggest issue with the death penalty in EQ1 was that it was too harsh both in terms of the potential negative consequences to your character and xp, as well as the time interruption it created for groups. Because of the massive interruption that death would cause (in terms of rez time and rebuffing), it lead to people playing things a bit too safe. The new OoC regen system helps out quite a bit, provided you've got someone to rez you in group, as you don't need to wait through 2 med cycles to recover from the rez, then get rebuffed, the mana regenerates through the buffing cycle. Note, you need to wait for rez effects to wear off before the OoC regen kicks in. As noted above, the introduction of summoning altars and the ShadowRest zone helps temper the penalty a bit more, but even with all those changes, its still "harsher" than many newer games.

              It is a fine line though, in games where buffs have less overall significance and XP debt reduces over time, you will find people occasionally taking a few crazy risks towards the end of the night, knowing that the next time they play, they'll be back in normal operating mode.

              Naladini the Wanderer
              of Stormhammer


              • #8
                I think the debt system in CoH works well. No exp loss so you can't lose your level, you just cut your exp in half untill its payed off (Which is like a half hour tops), and in the long run you end up with more influance (money) by the time it comes to buying upgrades.

                WoW is still pretty soft for a death penalty, yeah you might have hefty repair bill at the end of raid day but you make a lot more then what you pay from the loot you get the other 6 days of the week.

                edit** weeee, another thread sent to the forums of obscurity by my post!


                • #9
                  In WOW, in ZG, on the Bat boss, I made the mistake of dropping AOE on bat adds when my Feign Death was on cooldown. I died in the first minute of the fight. I ran back and ended up being one of the 4 people that were standing when the boss died. (luckily one was a pally) The druids got yelled at for battle rezzing a frekin hunter, but then everyone laughed when they heard me say I ran back and helped finish the fight. Death in WOW is an inconvenience in most areas. When you have a full tier two set you can easily spend 8-10G in repairs from one night of raiding. When you are in Un’Goro and make the mistake on dieing on the East side of the zone, you have a 10 minute corpse run. On the other hand, when finishing the Onyxia quest chain you have to go deep into a cave filled with blue dragonkin and whelps. It is a Super hard area. I stripped all armor and ran. 8 deaths later I made it to the NPC and finished my quest. It was easier to die than to get 5 people together to finish one silly quest.
                  Sometimes I do an impression of myself. I can dress like myself, even act like myself sometimes.


                  • #10
                    I've seen high end WoW raiders claim that the repair bills for raiding (with the skyrocketing costs from having to repair high tier sets) is the single biggest argument in favor of keeping gold sellers in the game.

                    You've got to pay for those repairs SOMEHOW...


                    • #11
                      I waffle a lot on this subject.

                      Essencially my stance is this:

                      For games that focus on casual intencity (WoW, CoH, EQ2) an 'easy' death penality is definately best as death is still a bad thing due to the incovenience, but it doesn't kill your efforts for that day/week

                      I still loved the difficulty factor EQ1 presented back when it wasn't supposed to be a casual game. I can remember a number of days where coming out of the day more or less exactly how I started it was a very good and satisfying thing after biting the big one early in the day. Ever been the only >48 cleric on a Naggy raid that wiped? Yeah, that was one of my days, and I took great satisfaction from it.

                      I, for one, would be delighted if they introduced a game where the death penalty was one step above permanent so long as the rest of the game played around that concept as well as EQ1 did.


                      • #12
                        DAoC has different death penalties for PvE and RvR deaths.
                        PvE deaths mean a loss of xp but it will not drop your level. First death of the level is a very slight loss, second more and third (and cap loss) is around 10% of the xp needed to gain another level. You can gain half that exp back if you get rezzed or get back to your grave and pray at it.
                        In addition to this, you get rez sickness which reduces your dps and spell duration. An NPC healer or (on ToA servers) a perfector can cure this. Being rezzed with higher level spells reduces the duration.
                        There is also constitution point loss if you are not rezzed. 1 for first death 2 for second and 3 for third onward. The same NPC healers that cure PvE rez sick cure this con loss, at level 50 the cost to cure 3 points of lost con is 17 gold.

                        RvR death penalty has no con loss, and there is a different version of Rez Sickness that reduces damage/duration by less but also snares your movement.
                        If not rezzed in RvR you also end up back at your border keep with a bit of travel to get back to your hunting grounds.


                        • #13
                          The other point that's might be interesting to discuss: Do we die too much in MMO games?

                          Part of the reason we see these death penalties that are all over the board is that death is unnatural, and there's no uniformly accepted way of handling it.

                          Should future MMO's de-emphasize death as a regular tactic? If you die, should you have a set number of lives before fully reincarnating and starting over?

                          Naladini the Wanderer
                          of Stormhammer


                          • #14
                            They tried that, with jedi in SWG. Look at what happened there, it's not a good idea to give limited deaths or make death penalty too harsh in games where there is any sort of challenge to survive.


                            • #15
                              I'm not necessarily advocating permadeath. I'm thinking more in terms of a limited number of ressurections, after you've used them up, you're reincarnated with a subset of abilities and an inheritance of equipment.

                              I'm thinking it would need to be a 20 level game, not an 80 level game for this to really be viable, but it might be an interesting twist on the norm.

                              Naladini the Wanderer
                              of Stormhammer